Collingwood's Draw

[saint tash]

er.. sorry about that

Yeah Frank u should know better. That post was way too sensible. If someone doesn't agree with u it means u r wrong.

[Johnny Member]

er.. sorry about that

Yeah Frank u should know better. That post was way too sensible. If someone doesn't agree with u it means u r wrong.

Whether Collingwood are the best team or not, or whether they travel well or not, is not the issue.

It's totally irrelevant. We don't want them punished, or given unfair treatment to bring them back to the pack - we want and should rightfully expect them to be treated precisely as every other team in the comp is.


What's being discussed, is the bias and blatantly unbalanced 'draw'.


Someone posted earlier something suggesting that if we had more member then we could get the same treatment. But that's not the issue either.

The issue isn't that we should be favoured - it's that no one should be favoured.

[Johnny Member]

They've won 14 of their last 18 interstate games including 7 of the last 8.

They've won all their interstate finals in that period (2).

That's a win rate of 78%!

Do we really want them playing more games out of Melbourne?

By contrast their record at the G for the same period is 64.18% (2007-2010).

Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

10 of the last 20?


So that includes 3 Brisbane ones where they were gifted an additional player by the AFL.

It includes Port, who funnily enough gave Brisbane their first Grand Final defeat - after Brisbane were farcically forced to play their 'home' prelim at the MCG whilst Port played there's at home.

So that brings it back to 6 of the last 20. Just over 25%.


Not a great figure for the pros of travelling I wouldn't have thought!

[Moorabbin Man]

Far from a coincidence and disgraceful. When are all AFL supporters going to mobilise and campaign for the sacking of Demitriou and Anderson. Corrupt, bean counting Bozos.

[Leo.J]

Whether Collingwood are the best team or not, or whether they travel well or not, is not the issue.

It's totally irrelevant. We don't want them punished, or given unfair treatment to bring them back to the pack - we want and should rightfully expect them to be treated precisely as every other team in the comp is.


What's being discussed, is the bias and blatantly unbalanced 'draw'.


Someone posted earlier something suggesting that if we had more member then we could get the same treatment. But that's not the issue either.

The issue isn't that we should be favoured - it's that no one should be favoured.

Bingo... couldn't agree more.

[bigcarl]

Whether Collingwood are the best team or not, or whether they travel well or not, is not the issue.

It's totally irrelevant. We don't want them punished, or given unfair treatment to bring them back to the pack - we want and should rightfully expect them to be treated precisely as every other team in the comp is.

Precisely. Don't worry about the AFL apologists on here, johnnymember. Or those who defend the clubs' weak stand on this issue. (ie, all clubs including the one dear to our hearts)

There is money to be made by playing at the MCG, but that shouldn't get in the way of a level playing field for all clubs and a competition with some sort of integrity.

And Demetriou has the hide to talk about integrity

[plugger66]

They've won 14 of their last 18 interstate games including 7 of the last 8.

They've won all their interstate finals in that period (2).

That's a win rate of 78%!

Do we really want them playing more games out of Melbourne?

By contrast their record at the G for the same period is 64.18% (2007-2010).

Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

10 of the last 20?


So that includes 3 Brisbane ones where they were gifted an additional player by the AFL.

It includes Port, who funnily enough gave Brisbane their first Grand Final defeat - after Brisbane were farcically forced to play their 'home' prelim at the MCG whilst Port played there's at home.

So that brings it back to 6 of the last 20. Just over 25%.


Not a great figure for the pros of travelling I wouldn't have thought!

So you take 4 away but keep those years. You have an interesting way of using stats. I notice you didnt bother with the first part of what he said. Couldnt think of any unrealistic ways to say those stats are wrong.

If we do take those 4 out, which I cant work out why especially the PA one it is 6 out of 16. Before this year how many interstate teams are there? And how many other clubs.

[Leo.J]

Out of the last 10 interstate Premiers

You have West Coast 92, 94

Adelaide 97, 98

Brisbane 2001, 02, 03

PA 04

And Sydney 05.

All of these clubs were heavily assisted by the AFL before and during their premership years.

All were assisted because of the apparent necessity of the expansion of the comp, in other words $$$. Again at the expense of the integrity of the comp.

And again now with the Filth, they are assisted with a favourable draw all in the name of the bottom line.

With the interstate clubs it was by design imo, with the Filth it has occured by accident maybe and now they're on a good thing they've turned a blind eye to it all.

However it has occured it is uneven, and it compromises the integrity of the competition.

We need to sign ourselves a Yao Ming to get the Chinese on board then we'd get looked after.

[totallyfrank]

They've won 14 of their last 18 interstate games including 7 of the last 8.

They've won all their interstate finals in that period (2).

That's a win rate of 78%!

Do we really want them playing more games out of Melbourne?

By contrast their record at the G for the same period is 64.18% (2007-2010).

Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

10 of the last 20?


So that includes 3 Brisbane ones where they were gifted an additional player by the AFL.

It includes Port, who funnily enough gave Brisbane their first Grand Final defeat - after Brisbane were farcically forced to play their 'home' prelim at the MCG whilst Port played there's at home.

So that brings it back to 6 of the last 20. Just over 25%.


Not a great figure for the pros of travelling I wouldn't have thought!

But 2 of Brisbane's Premierships were against a side that had the advantage of only having to travel 4 times for the year? Does that cancel each other out?

So what about their other Premiership you ask? Ok, I'll give you that. What about Carlton cheating the salary cap? I think that's evened it all out again

So, as I was saying... Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

Btw, I noticed you had nothing to say about Collingwood's recent record. I assume it's a little harder to twist those facts to suit your argument?

[Johnny Member]

They've won 14 of their last 18 interstate games including 7 of the last 8.

They've won all their interstate finals in that period (2).

That's a win rate of 78%!

Do we really want them playing more games out of Melbourne?

By contrast their record at the G for the same period is 64.18% (2007-2010).

Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

10 of the last 20?


So that includes 3 Brisbane ones where they were gifted an additional player by the AFL.

It includes Port, who funnily enough gave Brisbane their first Grand Final defeat - after Brisbane were farcically forced to play their 'home' prelim at the MCG whilst Port played there's at home.

So that brings it back to 6 of the last 20. Just over 25%.


Not a great figure for the pros of travelling I wouldn't have thought!

So you take 4 away but keep those years. You have an interesting way of using stats. I notice you didnt bother with the first part of what he said. Couldnt think of any unrealistic ways to say those stats are wrong.

If we do take those 4 out, which I cant work out why especially the PA one it is 6 out of 16. Before this year how many interstate teams are there? And how many other clubs.

Why would you take those years out? It's still based on the last 20 as per the original stat.

The suggestion of the stat was that travelling either isn't a disadvantage, or is actually an advantage and it makes no difference to winning the flag or not.

The 4 I took out were clearly situations where the travel 'disadvantage' was balanced out by another factor in the winning team's favour.

So back to the original stat, there could only possibly be a case for 6 of the past 20 flags proving or even suggesting that travelling is not a disadvantage.



As for the first part of the post, I don't know why I need to respond to that.
I'm not discussing whether Collingwood are any good or not, or what their travelling record is.

It's irrelevant.


Having said that, how did Collingwood go by the end of the year in the years when they have travelled a lot?
And how did they go in the finals after the one's they played interstate?

[plugger66]

They've won 14 of their last 18 interstate games including 7 of the last 8.

They've won all their interstate finals in that period (2).

That's a win rate of 78%!

Do we really want them playing more games out of Melbourne?

By contrast their record at the G for the same period is 64.18% (2007-2010).

Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

10 of the last 20?


So that includes 3 Brisbane ones where they were gifted an additional player by the AFL.

It includes Port, who funnily enough gave Brisbane their first Grand Final defeat - after Brisbane were farcically forced to play their 'home' prelim at the MCG whilst Port played there's at home.

So that brings it back to 6 of the last 20. Just over 25%.


Not a great figure for the pros of travelling I wouldn't have thought!

So you take 4 away but keep those years. You have an interesting way of using stats. I notice you didnt bother with the first part of what he said. Couldnt think of any unrealistic ways to say those stats are wrong.

If we do take those 4 out, which I cant work out why especially the PA one it is 6 out of 16. Before this year how many interstate teams are there? And how many other clubs.

Why would you take those years out? It's still based on the last 20 as per the original stat.

The suggestion of the stat was that travelling either isn't a disadvantage, or is actually an advantage and it makes no difference to winning the flag or not.

The 4 I took out were clearly situations where the travel 'disadvantage' was balanced out by another factor in the winning team's favour.

So back to the original stat, there could only possibly be a case for 6 of the past 20 flags proving or even suggesting that travelling is not a disadvantage.



As for the first part of the post, I don't know why I need to respond to that.
I'm not discussing whether Collingwood are any good or not, or what their travelling record is.

It's irrelevant.


Having said that, how did Collingwood go by the end of the year in the years when they have travelled a lot?
And how did they go in the finals after the one's they played interstate?

Travelling is completely relevant. That is how this thread started. Their lack of travel and having a lot of games at the G. I knew you would just piss those stats off as they dont suit your point of view.

[Johnny Member]

But 2 of Brisbane's Premierships were against a side that had the advantage of only having to travel 4 times for the year? Does that cancel each other out?

So what about their other Premiership you ask? Ok, I'll give you that. What about Carlton cheating the salary cap? I think that's evened it all out again

So, as I was saying... Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

Btw, I noticed you had nothing to say about Collingwood's recent record. I assume it's a little harder to twist those facts to suit your argument?

Sorry, you've lost me.


My argument, is merely that travelling is a disadvantage for Victorian clubs.
And even that aside, it doesn't matter.

It's about the Draw being fair.

And it's not fair.



Collingwood's record is irrelevant.


'Good teams winning anywhere' is also an irrelevant argument.

Why should you have to be a 10 goal better team than everyone else to have chance at winning the flag, when the fact of an even comp is that you only have to be 1 point better.

[Johnny Member]

They've won 14 of their last 18 interstate games including 7 of the last 8.

They've won all their interstate finals in that period (2).

That's a win rate of 78%!

Do we really want them playing more games out of Melbourne?

By contrast their record at the G for the same period is 64.18% (2007-2010).

Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

10 of the last 20?


So that includes 3 Brisbane ones where they were gifted an additional player by the AFL.

It includes Port, who funnily enough gave Brisbane their first Grand Final defeat - after Brisbane were farcically forced to play their 'home' prelim at the MCG whilst Port played there's at home.

So that brings it back to 6 of the last 20. Just over 25%.


Not a great figure for the pros of travelling I wouldn't have thought!

So you take 4 away but keep those years. You have an interesting way of using stats. I notice you didnt bother with the first part of what he said. Couldnt think of any unrealistic ways to say those stats are wrong.

If we do take those 4 out, which I cant work out why especially the PA one it is 6 out of 16. Before this year how many interstate teams are there? And how many other clubs.

Why would you take those years out? It's still based on the last 20 as per the original stat.

The suggestion of the stat was that travelling either isn't a disadvantage, or is actually an advantage and it makes no difference to winning the flag or not.

The 4 I took out were clearly situations where the travel 'disadvantage' was balanced out by another factor in the winning team's favour.

So back to the original stat, there could only possibly be a case for 6 of the past 20 flags proving or even suggesting that travelling is not a disadvantage.



As for the first part of the post, I don't know why I need to respond to that.
I'm not discussing whether Collingwood are any good or not, or what their travelling record is.

It's irrelevant.


Having said that, how did Collingwood go by the end of the year in the years when they have travelled a lot?
And how did they go in the finals after the one's they played interstate?

Travelling is completely relevant. That is how this thread started. Their lack of travel and having a lot of games at the G. I knew you would just piss those stats off as they dont suit your point of view.

They don't travel as much as everybody else. That's a fact

That's what the thread is about.


And that makes the 'draw' incredibly uneven, unbalanced and unfair.


That's what the thread is about.

[plugger66]

They've won 14 of their last 18 interstate games including 7 of the last 8.

They've won all their interstate finals in that period (2).

That's a win rate of 78%!

Do we really want them playing more games out of Melbourne?

By contrast their record at the G for the same period is 64.18% (2007-2010).

Good sides win anywhere. In fact 10 of the last 20 Premierships were won by teams who played roughly half their h&a games interstate, not to mention finals.

10 of the last 20?


So that includes 3 Brisbane ones where they were gifted an additional player by the AFL.

It includes Port, who funnily enough gave Brisbane their first Grand Final defeat - after Brisbane were farcically forced to play their 'home' prelim at the MCG whilst Port played there's at home.

So that brings it back to 6 of the last 20. Just over 25%.


Not a great figure for the pros of travelling I wouldn't have thought!

So you take 4 away but keep those years. You have an interesting way of using stats. I notice you didnt bother with the first part of what he said. Couldnt think of any unrealistic ways to say those stats are wrong.

If we do take those 4 out, which I cant work out why especially the PA one it is 6 out of 16. Before this year how many interstate teams are there? And how many other clubs.

Why would you take those years out? It's still based on the last 20 as per the original stat.

The suggestion of the stat was that travelling either isn't a disadvantage, or is actually an advantage and it makes no difference to winning the flag or not.

The 4 I took out were clearly situations where the travel 'disadvantage' was balanced out by another factor in the winning team's favour.

So back to the original stat, there could only possibly be a case for 6 of the past 20 flags proving or even suggesting that travelling is not a disadvantage.



As for the first part of the post, I don't know why I need to respond to that.
I'm not discussing whether Collingwood are any good or not, or what their travelling record is.

It's irrelevant.


Having said that, how did Collingwood go by the end of the year in the years when they have travelled a lot?
And how did they go in the finals after the one's they played interstate?

Travelling is completely relevant. That is how this thread started. Their lack of travel and having a lot of games at the G. I knew you would just piss those stats off as they dont suit your point of view.

They don't travel as much as everybody else. That's a fact

That's what the thread is about.


And that makes the 'draw' incredibly uneven, unbalanced and unfair.


That's what the thread is about.

We all know it is unfair and it always will be. It would be even more unfair if sides couldnt win interstate but good sides do as proven by stats. People blame AD but before him the draw was unfair and after him it will still be unfair. The AFL have always stated it is to maximise the crowd and even though people disagree you must always have 2 derbys as well. Those things will never change.

[MCG-Unit]

But 2 of Brisbane's Premierships were against a side that had the advantage of only having to travel 4 times for the year? Does that cancel each other out?

Btw, I noticed you had nothing to say about Collingwood's recent record. I assume it's a little harder to twist those facts to suit your argument?

Why are you interested in Collingwood's recent record - seeing as that you're a Saint supporter 'n all

[Leo.J]

We all know it is unfair...

Well why are we arguing then?

[saint tash]

Geeze I would hate to be an interstate side that travels every second week.

[plugger66]

We all know it is unfair...

Well why are we arguing then?

Because some people think it actually wins you a flag. i dont.

[Dr Spaceman]

Geeze I would hate to be an interstate side that travels every second week.

It's a fair point you make tash.

It's a hard gig for those sides, but somewhat compensated by the fact they have genuine home games every second week which are very difficult for the visitors to win.

Swings and roundabouts

[Leo.J]

Geeze I would hate to be an interstate side that travels every second week.

Funny you say that.

While they have a disadvantage playing interstate, they have a large home ground/crowd advantage when playing at home. Except when playing a co-tennant.

Unlike most Melbourne sides, who only have a home ground or crowd advantage when playing an interstate club.

Unless you're some of the bigger clubs who have a home ground or crowd advantage no matter where they play in Melbourne.

Like Collingwood who have a home ground or crowd advantage for 18 games a year.

[Leo.J]

We all know it is unfair...

Well why are we arguing then?

Because some people think it actually wins you a flag. i dont.

I don't think anyone has said that.

[Johnny Member]

We all know it is unfair and it always will be. It would be even more unfair if sides couldnt win interstate but good sides do as proven by stats. People blame AD but before him the draw was unfair and after him it will still be unfair. The AFL have always stated it is to maximise the crowd and even though people disagree you must always have 2 derbys as well. Those things will never change.

What has AD done to fix this?

[plugger66]

We all know it is unfair and it always will be. It would be even more unfair if sides couldnt win interstate but good sides do as proven by stats. People blame AD but before him the draw was unfair and after him it will still be unfair. The AFL have always stated it is to maximise the crowd and even though people disagree you must always have 2 derbys as well. Those things will never change.

What has AD done to fix this?

Nothing. Did you read what I said?

[Johnny Member]

Geeze I would hate to be an interstate side that travels every second week.

It's a fair point you make tash.

It's a hard gig for those sides, but somewhat compensated by the fact they have genuine home games every second week which are very difficult for the visitors to win.

Swings and roundabouts

Glen Jakovich reckons that travelling every second week cut his, and some of his teammate's careers short.

To the point that in his latter years as a player, he didn't travel at all. Alastair Lynch was the same.

For this to happen, there is no doubt that it takes a toll.


What Jakovich also said, was that the more you travel, the better you get at it.
So in the end, the non-Melbourne clubs actually get an advantage. They are good travellers because they do it every second week, and when playing at home they actually play at their home ground in front of their home crowd (unlike Vic clubs who share grounds).
They also have the advantage of playing Vic clubs at home that aren't accustomed to travelling.


So basically, according to someone who'd know, travelling for the non-Melbourne clubs isn't an issue. Travelling for the Vic clubs is.
And travelling, over time, burns you out.

[SainterSoul]

Do people seriously think it makes any difference if Collingwood plays 4, instead of 5 or even 6 games interstate? Seriously?

The Pies will win anywhere, it really doesn't make a difference.

We need to stop worrying about opposition sides, and just worry about ourselves. There are too many sides ie. Nth Melbourne, Bulldogs etc, and too many supporters (from all clubs, including ours) that whinge about inequity instead of just getting on with it.