Terry Wallace on our Selection Policy

[Teflon]

Wallace is right.

Geelong havent lost a game yet still squeeze in 4 kids under 21???

We won 19 straight.....how many were we trundelling through?

Anyway, thats all hindsight so lets not make the mistake - play these kids consistently from now till seasons end - no, not all at once but give them each enough continuity to see what they have got and so they also realise what it takes to make an impact at senior level.

IF we get close to finals or indeed make finals.....whats the bet Ross Lyon selects Blakes, Mqualters, Raph, Gram, Dempster, Baker etc even though these guys wont take us fwd?

Id much rather make finals and see Lynch or Sippos, Ledger and co get a taste.

We aint winning the flag this year - it HAS to all now be about development and the future.

[BigMart]

Fair call...

Why is anyone who makes a slight critisism of st kilda a flog. Are stk perfect??

Because on my watch, i have seem more failed attempt than successful ones....

And our best argument....we were a couple of kicks away, or a bad bounce....reality is, we did not win, therefore we lost....

[Furphy]

Ah, who can forget the Terry Wallace attempted comeback in the late 80's? Wearing that ridiculous wonder woman/native American headband and one media commentator refering to him as "Chief Running Slow"

[Saints43]

Good article Terry......especially the bit about Polo and Gamble....dumb recruiting

The Polo recruitment was a really strange one to me.

In RLs first season the most used phrase in his post match press conferences was 'butchered the ball'. He seemed really upset at the teams footskills.

Yet season after season we have picked up blokes who are poor kicks.

Polo was playing for Coburg because - for all his good points - he constantly turned the ball over. So no surprises here...

[joffaboy]

Yes Terry - we should have played all the kids on our list constantly over the past two years.

That way we probably wouldn't have made the Grands Final two years in a row and had a shot at a flag.

Then you could write a story about how poor the Saints selection policy was when we had players int heir prime being dropped for young kids and Ross Lyon doesn't know what he is doing

I love these hindsight kings. Maybe one day Terry will actually get an AFl to a Grand Final. Oh thats right Terry doesn't coach anymore

As for playing kids - yes Ross is hopeless, hasn't played one this season.

[SaintPav]

Armo and Steven would have probably played more last year but they were injured. Maybe Terry should speak to the club and to Ross so he has all his angles covered and his facts right. Not sure if he did that.

[Behind Play]

Cannot see one problem with Terry's article. His facts are correct, we have gone backwards and the cats and Pies have moved on, as has the blues.
Don't be so pig headed and precious, look at the artricle positively.

[SaintPav]

Cannot see one problem with Terry's article. His facts are correct, we have gone backwards and the cats and Pies have moved on, as has the blues.
Don't be so pig headed and precious, look at the artricle positively.

Well, dah....
Wallace said that young players should have played more games which would include both Armo and Steven. They were injured last year so they could not have played so he was wrong and so are you.

[Sainternist]

I agree with Wallace, but there are no great revelations in this article.

A bit late on the scene, Terry.

The piece could have packed a little more oomph, if were written directly after Round 1.

[SaintPav]

I agree with Wallace, but there are no great revelations in this article.

A bit late on the scene, Terry.

The piece could have packed a little more oomph, if were written directly after Round 1.

A couple of commentators were talking about this last year. It's just very trendy to bag St Kilda at the moment and we are easy targets.

Robert Shaw wrote this article after our second loss to Essendon last year, so yes, he is a bit behind.

While some of these guys weren't on our list last year, but can someone please tell me that Maca, Armo, Steven, Lynch, Winmar, Cripps, Ledger, Sipposs and Walsh won't be any good for us.

t’s all or nothing for the Saints in their quest for that drought-breaking flag say ROBERT SHAW.

I AM going to reel off some names and your job is to tell me who they are.
Daniel Archer, Paul Cahill, Steven Gaertner, Nick Heyne, Mark Hutchings, Will Johnson, Blake McGrath, Tom Simpkin, Alistair Smith, Luke Miles, Jack Steven, Tom Lynch, Nick Winmar and Tommy Walsh.

If you answered that they are 14 players of the 47 on St Kilda’s list, take a bow. This equates to 30 per cent of St Kilda’s list heading into the second decade of the 21st century. This is the decade that will also see an 18-team competition, meaning exactly that – more competition. So have the Saints got the youth coming through?

Let’s gloss over St Kilda’s recent three-game exposure at the hands of Essendon’s pace. Yes, the Saints are slow. Amazingly industrious, organised and well coached, but slow. It is no fluke of nature that Essendon’s one major strength – pace – again exposed them. While the Saints will reload and eventually get back the important Clint Jones, Steven Baker and the additional run of Raph Clarke, worrying signs are coming over the horizon like a rising sun over our eastern skies.

Those 14 players represent the future succession planning of the St Kilda list. Lynch has had one game and ran headlong into Dustin Fletcher, while Steven has looked poised and composed during periods of his short career. The others we haven’t seen. I just hope there are four players among them who can play close to 200 games.
Certainly there should be four or five 100-game players on that list. If there are not, then I fear that the premiership wait since 1966 may continue to go into another decade, and then another. The Saints could be in real trouble. In fact, by the year 2013 when we are operating with 18 teams, the Saints may be struggling to be in the top 10, or whatever the AFL decides is a commercially attractive finals system.

But wait a minute – this is a team that has just lost a Grand Final by a couple of points, is widely respected for its evolution of a great pressure game, and is so defensively organised that it can keep AFL teams to zero goals in a half of football! But consider that by the end of 2012 there will be no Steven King or Michael Gardiner, so young Ben McEvoy becomes the club’s No.1 ruckman, supported by the recently listed Adam Pattison.

Young midfielder David Armitage is from Morningside in Queensland. He has potential, is tough and a left footer, but is not getting a game and may well be a recruiting target for the Gold Coast. If he goes then the Saints have lost a top 10 pick (he was pick No. 9 at the 2006 draft). When you look at succession planning you must continually look at the next group of kids coming through and actually play them before you need them. For example, at the moment Melbourne is playing without Jack Grimes (21 games), Jordan Gysberts (19), Addam Marric (19), Ricky Petterd (22), Jake Spencer (20), Luke Tapscott (19) and Jack Trengove (18). But they are ready to go – they’ve been blooded.
It is a given that the Saints have not been near the bottom in recent years and have not been afforded the luxury of priority picks. They have also been constantly in the finals hunt with the premiership door firmly ajar.

When you’re travelling well, it’s hard to get early picks, and it’s hard to justify games for kids. If we use the space time capsule and project our football thinking through to the start of 2013, it makes for very interesting analysis. Baker will be 32, Jason Blake 31, Gardiner 35 and fishing in WA, Lenny Hayes 32, King 35 and in the same boat with Gardie, Justin Koschitzke 31 heading for 32, Stephen Milne 33, Leigh Montagna 30, and the great Nick Riewoldt 31.
You can also assume that the wear and tear on the bodies of Hayes, Koschitzke and Riewoldt will be significant. And the AFL might also have legislated Baker out of the game by then.

And the percentages tell us that the Saints will probably lose an uncontracted player to the Gold Coast. The Saints are right in the hunt for a premiership now, and I believe their best – absolute best – in 2010 can win it. But win it they must, because it looks downhill from here. To boost weaknesses and depth, the Saints brought in Zac Dawson, Sean Dempster, Adam Schneider, King, Gardiner, Pattison, Brett Peake, Farren Ray and Jesse Smith – and Andrew Lovett. All have a story to tell, and all were recruited with the view to the issues of depth and maturity.

Maybe Ross Lyon and his advisers took note of how the Swans had success with recycled players and won their premiership. Good recent news was that St Kilda confirmed the bulk re-signing of some 14 players, most of whom had already been made public. Nick Dal Santo is tied up until the end of 2013, Hayes, Koschitzke, Jason Gram, Schneider, James Gwilt, Montagna and Brendon Goddard until 2012, and Blake and Baker for 2011.

Youngsters McEvoy, Rhys Stanley, Steven and Smith have also signed new deals. The name David Armitage was not among those signings. Maybe he has a contract.
So 2013 looms as a significant year for St Kilda. If they get their elusive premiership between now and then, it will be a performance of momentous proportions, and it will buy them time to regenerate. No matter what window may be closed or open, clubs that are in finals mode must also be in a phase of development.
You should be in development and premiership mode at the same time. Or else you just go for it, try to get that premiership you have been chasing for so long and that will bring so much joy to so many, and hang the consequences. Maybe the Saints have just gone for it. There is nothing wrong with having a short-term plan. But the consequences of failure can ultimately be severe.

Errors of judgment could plunge the Saints back into the abyss in 2013 and beyond. Unfortunately the St Kilda’s emergence as an AFL power has coincided with a team called Geelong being in the same competition. Add the emerging Magpies and the more than useful Bulldogs, and the Saints may have picked a bad time to peak.
I, for one, am not sure that the future is as bright as the re-signing of 14 players may first signify.

– ROBERT SHAW

[PJ]

This idea that because we made two grand finals our selection policy was perfect, is patently bollocks. We have no idea how much better we might have been if alistair smith, or Tom lynch had been given an extended run during the year. Or Armo or jack Steven for that matter, although apparently both were injured all year and not playing at sandy... Mcqualter was carried all year to what end? Robert eddy anyone? Who knows what might have been if a couple of could be's were given a chance instead of a couple of never wills - notwithstanding their exemplary space filling talent.

Code: Select all

And by your argument we could also be bottom of the ladder with those named in your team. 

[vacuous space]

Selection is only part of the problem. Most of the roles that young players come into are doomed to failure. The kids are frequently forced to play in a forward line that even the likes of Roo, Kosi and Milne are struggling for consistent form. Siposs is a beautiful kick. If he doesn't have the tank for midfield, why not try him out of the backline? Carlton has with Yarran. Melbourne has with Tapscott and, at times, Watts. Sure, there will be struggles, but that's why you have experienced guys like Fisher, Gwilt and Gilbert to help him out.

Ledger looks every bit a natural centre. He came into the team off some good form in the middle for Sandy. He's then subbed into games playing a role that Robert Eddy would probably recognise. Simpkin seemed to go just fine in his games as a key defender then was dropped for Clarke - who doesn't play key and has rarely been better than ordinary. The longer Armo is stuck up forward, the more likely his form dips and he gets dropped for another in the revolving door of forward experiments.

I don't mind giving an excited kid a chance to scurry around and chase. I still feel that playing AFL forward is so tough that it's a burden that should be shared between a teams most talented players. People complain when Roo pushes up the ground, but most other CHF types seem to be doing it. Watch Petrie the weekend after next. He pushes up and stays involved. As does Franklin. Most of the good teams are resting gun mids in the forward line. We just flipped Armo and Steven. Shock of shocks, Steven's playing better and Armo's playing worse.

I don't think our selection has been great either. I didn't see a whole lot wrong with Terry Tan's article. I really think we need to change the way we do a lot of things. We were ahead of the curve two years ago. Now we're squarely behind. I don't believe that's all due to our players getting older and the disappointment of finals. The guys up in the box have been guessing all year. We need to figure out soon whether we're clinging to hope or building for next year.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

I never fail to laugh when I hear/see Terry Wallace introduced on the radio and/or TV as 'The List Manager'. The guy did a helluva' job managing the list of the Tigers. Recruited Kent Kingsley, Mark Graham...the list goes on (boom boom).

[Dr Spaceman]

I never fail to laugh when I hear/see Terry Wallace introduced on the radio and/or TV as 'The List Manager'. The guy did a helluva' job managing the list of the Tigers. Recruited Kent Kingsley, Mark Graham...the list goes on (boom boom).

Maybe the moniker "The List Damager" was already taken

[Teflon]

Selection is only part of the problem. Most of the roles that young players come into are doomed to failure. The kids are frequently forced to play in a forward line that even the likes of Roo, Kosi and Milne are struggling for consistent form. Siposs is a beautiful kick. If he doesn't have the tank for midfield, why not try him out of the backline? Carlton has with Yarran. Melbourne has with Tapscott and, at times, Watts. Sure, there will be struggles, but that's why you have experienced guys like Fisher, Gwilt and Gilbert to help him out.

Ledger looks every bit a natural centre. He came into the team off some good form in the middle for Sandy. He's then subbed into games playing a role that Robert Eddy would probably recognise. Simpkin seemed to go just fine in his games as a key defender then was dropped for Clarke - who doesn't play key and has rarely been better than ordinary. The longer Armo is stuck up forward, the more likely his form dips and he gets dropped for another in the revolving door of forward experiments.

I don't mind giving an excited kid a chance to scurry around and chase. I still feel that playing AFL forward is so tough that it's a burden that should be shared between a teams most talented players. People complain when Roo pushes up the ground, but most other CHF types seem to be doing it. Watch Petrie the weekend after next. He pushes up and stays involved. As does Franklin. Most of the good teams are resting gun mids in the forward line. We just flipped Armo and Steven. Shock of shocks, Steven's playing better and Armo's playing worse.

I don't think our selection has been great either. I didn't see a whole lot wrong with Terry Tan's article. I really think we need to change the way we do a lot of things. We were ahead of the curve two years ago. Now we're squarely behind. I don't believe that's all due to our players getting older and the disappointment of finals. The guys up in the box have been guessing all year. We need to figure out soon whether we're clinging to hope or building for next year.

Good post - I agree.

Shaws article above pinpoints our current issue: when you are in Premiership hunt.....you also need to simultaneously be in development. Cats are doing both now.

For a long time Ive wanted to see us rest a mid fwd - aka Swan at Pies. There is no doubt there is a role here for Goddard/Dal who use the ball so well. Perhaps it says more about the footskills in defence? we are robbing Peter to pay Paul..

Armo needs to go back to the middle. Steven stay there and rotate with other experienced mids fwd.

We also need to expose the likes of Lynch to an extended run of games - look at McEvoy.....he is finally showing signs of comfort at this level beacuse we have HAD to play him.

Heyne aint gonna make it and from all reports Cahill is in the same boat - my other contentious point is we take way to long to determine this...see Brad Howard, Leigh Fisher et al.

Ledger is also another who need extended game time - he doesnt, even with limited experience, appear over awed at the top level....play him.

[WinnersOnly]

Selection is only part of the problem. Most of the roles that young players come into are doomed to failure. The kids are frequently forced to play in a forward line that even the likes of Roo, Kosi and Milne are struggling for consistent form. Siposs is a beautiful kick. If he doesn't have the tank for midfield, why not try him out of the backline? Carlton has with Yarran. Melbourne has with Tapscott and, at times, Watts. Sure, there will be struggles, but that's why you have experienced guys like Fisher, Gwilt and Gilbert to help him out.

Ledger looks every bit a natural centre. He came into the team off some good form in the middle for Sandy. He's then subbed into games playing a role that Robert Eddy would probably recognise. Simpkin seemed to go just fine in his games as a key defender then was dropped for Clarke - who doesn't play key and has rarely been better than ordinary. The longer Armo is stuck up forward, the more likely his form dips and he gets dropped for another in the revolving door of forward experiments.

I don't mind giving an excited kid a chance to scurry around and chase. I still feel that playing AFL forward is so tough that it's a burden that should be shared between a teams most talented players. People complain when Roo pushes up the ground, but most other CHF types seem to be doing it. Watch Petrie the weekend after next. He pushes up and stays involved. As does Franklin. Most of the good teams are resting gun mids in the forward line. We just flipped Armo and Steven. Shock of shocks, Steven's playing better and Armo's playing worse.

I don't think our selection has been great either. I didn't see a whole lot wrong with Terry Tan's article. I really think we need to change the way we do a lot of things. We were ahead of the curve two years ago. Now we're squarely behind. I don't believe that's all due to our players getting older and the disappointment of finals. The guys up in the box have been guessing all year. We need to figure out soon whether we're clinging to hope or building for next year.

Great post vacuous space!

But really what it comes down to, is a distinct lack of trust or willingness to put faith in the younger players for any length of time.

We will not make the finals this year and even if we do playing the team that ran out against Geelong will get us no where ! For the sake of our future I hope we don't make the finals and RL and his team have to play the next generation - the clubs future!

I'm not giving up on 2011 - I just believe the next generation with 10-20 games in them will improve our side considerably.

[gringo]

Look guys we are in footy limbo at the moment. The coaches would know that a few close games go our way and our confidence would be up we have blooded some young players and are still technically in the hunt for finals.

Their is pressure to maintain wins and finals to keep sponsors, the AFL fixture and membership. We go out and play 22 kids and we start looking like we have thrown in the towel.

We have been playing young players this season, the idea that just sticking kids on the park has some kind of magical ability to make instant players isn't realistic. If we sent a bunch of kids out every week and had them smashed by 10 goals it isn't going to fast track their development.

For a variety of reasons we need to have a mix of young and old. Siposs is a case in point, he looked great at the start but looked tired by the time he was dropped. Ledger is in the sub spot because they obviously don't think he is ready for 2 hours of intense footy yet at AFL level.

I don't think the logic behind playing a bulk of senior players against the top teams is bad policy, we had three players with under 50 games and have put games into about nine kids this season. At some point we will either write off finals and go youth or get a run on and you will probably see more old guys in the team.

[stinger]

Good article Terry......especially the bit about Polo and Gamble....dumb recruiting

+i


this bits a worry...true though....


"The Saints on the other hand, sold the message that either their young players are not as talented or developed as their opposition, or that they cannot trust them in the heat of the battle in big games. Neither is a great message to deliver.

The Cats won this game comfortably on the scoreboard but equally in their future direction."

[plugger66]

Selection is only part of the problem. Most of the roles that young players come into are doomed to failure. The kids are frequently forced to play in a forward line that even the likes of Roo, Kosi and Milne are struggling for consistent form. Siposs is a beautiful kick. If he doesn't have the tank for midfield, why not try him out of the backline? Carlton has with Yarran. Melbourne has with Tapscott and, at times, Watts. Sure, there will be struggles, but that's why you have experienced guys like Fisher, Gwilt and Gilbert to help him out.

Ledger looks every bit a natural centre. He came into the team off some good form in the middle for Sandy. He's then subbed into games playing a role that Robert Eddy would probably recognise. Simpkin seemed to go just fine in his games as a key defender then was dropped for Clarke - who doesn't play key and has rarely been better than ordinary. The longer Armo is stuck up forward, the more likely his form dips and he gets dropped for another in the revolving door of forward experiments.

I don't mind giving an excited kid a chance to scurry around and chase. I still feel that playing AFL forward is so tough that it's a burden that should be shared between a teams most talented players. People complain when Roo pushes up the ground, but most other CHF types seem to be doing it. Watch Petrie the weekend after next. He pushes up and stays involved. As does Franklin. Most of the good teams are resting gun mids in the forward line. We just flipped Armo and Steven. Shock of shocks, Steven's playing better and Armo's playing worse.

I don't think our selection has been great either. I didn't see a whole lot wrong with Terry Tan's article. I really think we need to change the way we do a lot of things. We were ahead of the curve two years ago. Now we're squarely behind. I don't believe that's all due to our players getting older and the disappointment of finals. The guys up in the box have been guessing all year. We need to figure out soon whether we're clinging to hope or building for next year.

So lets get this straight. You want to put Siposs down back occasionally even though he has probably never played there and you then use 2nd and 3rd year players as examples none of which played down back in their first year. I also think you will find Ledger was sore last week as was Simpkin. Pretty hard to play a key position in your first 2 games. I like the idea of mids resting forward but I think the reason most dont is the lack of run out of the backline especially with Gilbert out of form. Our simple problem is out recruits just dont have a great impact when played.