Winmar.

[clarky449]

It's funny - cos I'm not seeing anything in our youngsters that everyone on here seems to see.

I see skinny kids not ready for AFL. I see Cripps getting himself into good position, but has poor skill and not great courage. I saw Winmar cop a standard bump and lie on the turf like he'd just been shot. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one as it may have got him in the wrong spot - BUT the tackle where he lay on the ground motionless occurred about 10 metres from where I was sitting - I thought he was dead. It was a standard AFL tackle. LIke I said, he will need to toughen up in a hurry or won't last long at this level. If his body can't withstand AFL tackling we probably shouldn't play him. It's his 2nd season so I would hope he has developed a little bit by now.

His first game so can only get better.

I see Jack Steven continuously getting caught with the ball b/c he's too slow. Was gratifying to see him win some clearances in the 2nd half - hope this is a sign of things to come, but atm don't see what the fuss is about with him. SOMEONE has to win a clearance don't they? We are getting smashed in this area for various reasons.

I see big Ben getting thrashed in the ruck and barely able to compete against the most raw of ruckman (I also see him take many good grabs, when he can make a contest)

I see Siposs not getting a lot of the ball but actually showing something when he does go near the ball, and competes well when the ball is in his area. THAT'S what I hope to see each week.

I see Armo in his 5th year trying his guts out and getting lauded for a 17 possession game where he doesn't kick a goal or set up a lot of play. Not quick or that skillful, but is apparently the future of the saints....

I think you expect too much from Sippos and Cripps. On Winmar the tackle was a hard tackle, his arms were pinned and head slammed into the artificial turf. Nothing to protect him.

[joffaboy]

I see skinny kids not ready for AFL. I see Cripps getting himself into good position, but has poor skill and not great courage. I saw Winmar cop a standard bump and lie on the turf like he'd just been shot.

Hurt his shoulder. Then came back on.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt

Wow, bifg of you

BUT the tackle where he lay on the ground motionless occurred about 10 metres from where I was sitting - I thought he was dead. It was a standard AFL tackle. LIke I said, he will need to toughen up in a hurry or won't last long at this level.

getting your arms pinned, the full weight of the tackler on you and your head being smacked into the Artificial turf is a std AFL tackle?

I suppose Kosi was weak for fracturing his skull? What about Lenny? Piss weak, nobody touched him and he went down like he was shot.

I see Jack Steven continuously getting caught with the ball b/c he's too slow. Was gratifying to see him win some clearances in the 2nd half - hope this is a sign of things to come, but atm don't see what the fuss is about with him. SOMEONE has to win a clearance don't they? We are getting smashed in this area for various reasons.

He won EIGHT clearances. he was BOG in the final qtr when the rest of the players were stuffed.

I see big Ben getting thrashed in the ruck and barely able to compete against the most raw of ruckman (I also see him take many good grabs, when he can make a contest)

Ruckmen take longer to mature. Mac is a second ruckman at best ATM, he has had to burden all of the load and without Lenny there we have been getting spanked.

I see Siposs not getting a lot of the ball but actually showing something when he does go near the ball, and competes well when the ball is in his area. THAT'S what I hope to see each week.

FFS, he is a fkn 18 y.o playing his SECOND FKN GAME. he is a beautiful kick and has kicked two goals in each game. Our first goal was from a 55 metre pass to Milne.

yeah he s*** as well

I see Armo in his 5th year trying his guts out and getting lauded for a 17 possession game where he doesn't kick a goal or set up a lot of play. Not quick or that skillful, but is apparently the future of the saints....

Armo is getting better and better trying to fill Lenny's spot. had a tough in and under game yesterday and was very physical. has played about 30 games.

Fair Dinkum mate, have you ever played AFL football? Who in F@@ks name are you to question the courage of 18 y.o kids playing AFL football?

You sound like a clueless armchair critic that would run a mile if you had to do the things AFl footballers do on a football field.

You didn't mention Cripps. Are you too dissappointed in him to even mention how s*** he is?

Really a piss poor post that says more about you than anything.

[Pwoit]

Really a piss poor post that says more about you than anything.

+ 1

Totally agree JB - flog of a post - must be watching a different game

[Moods]

I see skinny kids not ready for AFL. I see Cripps getting himself into good position, but has poor skill and not great courage. I saw Winmar cop a standard bump and lie on the turf like he'd just been shot.

Hurt his shoulder. Then came back on.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt

Wow, bifg of you

BUT the tackle where he lay on the ground motionless occurred about 10 metres from where I was sitting - I thought he was dead. It was a standard AFL tackle. LIke I said, he will need to toughen up in a hurry or won't last long at this level.

getting your arms pinned, the full weight of the tackler on you and your head being smacked into the Artificial turf is a std AFL tackle?

I suppose Kosi was weak for fracturing his skull? What about Lenny? Piss weak, nobody touched him and he went down like he was shot.

I see Jack Steven continuously getting caught with the ball b/c he's too slow. Was gratifying to see him win some clearances in the 2nd half - hope this is a sign of things to come, but atm don't see what the fuss is about with him. SOMEONE has to win a clearance don't they? We are getting smashed in this area for various reasons.

He won EIGHT clearances. he was BOG in the final qtr when the rest of the players were stuffed.

I see big Ben getting thrashed in the ruck and barely able to compete against the most raw of ruckman (I also see him take many good grabs, when he can make a contest)

Ruckmen take longer to mature. Mac is a second ruckman at best ATM, he has had to burden all of the load and without Lenny there we have been getting spanked.

I see Siposs not getting a lot of the ball but actually showing something when he does go near the ball, and competes well when the ball is in his area. THAT'S what I hope to see each week.

FFS, he is a fkn 18 y.o playing his SECOND FKN GAME. he is a beautiful kick and has kicked two goals in each game. Our first goal was from a 55 metre pass to Milne.

yeah he s*** as well

I see Armo in his 5th year trying his guts out and getting lauded for a 17 possession game where he doesn't kick a goal or set up a lot of play. Not quick or that skillful, but is apparently the future of the saints....

Armo is getting better and better trying to fill Lenny's spot. had a tough in and under game yesterday and was very physical. has played about 30 games.

Fair Dinkum mate, have you ever played AFL football? Who in F@@ks name are you to question the courage of 18 y.o kids playing AFL football?

You sound like a clueless armchair critic that would run a mile if you had to do the things AFl footballers do on a football field.

You didn't mention Cripps. Are you too dissappointed in him to even mention how s*** he is?

Really a piss poor post that says more about you than anything.

Not like you to jump all over a post w/o even reading it. No not much at all.

I actually said Siposs is exactly what I would like to see in our young players. How is that bagging him? I don't expect 25 possession games - but I do expect a contest when they're out there and to possibly show some skill. Siposs has done both those things. Of course if you read the post you'd recognise that. Of course you go off half cocked like you always do...

As for Cripps - if you read your own reply to me with the quotations attributed to me you will see that I did address him

Tell me, are any of our youngsters (apart from Siposs) being talked about with any sort of excitement in AFL circles? I would say Siposs is the only one. The raving on here about a saints team that got over the line against an already ordinary Melbourne outfit that was completely depleted amazes me. Especially considering all our better players in the team got over 30 possessions. That should equate to a 10 goal win normally. The kids will make mistakes - but I can't believe the way some are raving about them. That's all.

And what's with the childish 'I'd like to see you do better' retorts? What are we in primary school?

[lefty]

I didn't see the entire game, but it seems like Winmar wasn't really up to it, as per his NAB cup games, still, just play him anyway.

I think most of us are over McQualter, Raph, Blake, along with our in-ability to win a center clearance (which cost us in both finals big time)

Keen on watching Ledger, Crocker, Stanley and Simpkin...

[saint66au]

Thought he was just OK...his Melbourne debut counterpart had 27 touches

Not sure if Id take him to Perth. Dont think hes that important to the side that we need sore kids running around on the wide expanses of Subi

If he'd snagged that goal half the Forum would have wanted a Rising Star nomination for him

Just on the kids..anyone else think that Siposs is gonna get a bag before the end of the year? Just needs our midfield to get some clean ball to the forwards and I reckon he'll get on the end of a few..and he wont miss.

That pass to Milne to set up our first goal was weighted with a precision rarely seen in our colours of late. Got me moist it did

[clarky449]

Didnt need to know that.

[Moods]

Thought he was just OK...his Melbourne debut counterpart had 27 touches

Not sure if Id take him to Perth. Dont think hes that important to the side that we need sore kids running around on the wide expanses of Subi

If he'd snagged that goal half the Forum would have wanted a Rising Star nomination for him

Just on the kids..anyone else think that Siposs is gonna get a bag before the end of the year? Just needs our midfield to get some clean ball to the forwards and I reckon he'll get on the end of a few..and he wont miss.

That pass to Milne to set up our first goal was weighted with a precision rarely seen in our colours of late. Got me moist it did

EXACTLY

[Spinner]

He can kick...!

[Ice Wolf]

Thought he was just OK...his Melbourne debut counterpart had 27 touches

Not sure if Id take him to Perth. Dont think hes that important to the side that we need sore kids running around on the wide expanses of Subi

If he'd snagged that goal half the Forum would have wanted a Rising Star nomination for him

Just on the kids..anyone else think that Siposs is gonna get a bag before the end of the year? Just needs our midfield to get some clean ball to the forwards and I reckon he'll get on the end of a few..and he wont miss.

That pass to Milne to set up our first goal was weighted with a precision rarely seen in our colours of late. Got me moist it did

Shouldn't underestimate what playing at Subi in front of his family might do.

[joffaboy]

And what's with the childish 'I'd like to see you do better' retorts? What are we in primary school?

Mate, you are the one critisising an 18 y.o. courage after they had their head smacked into the artificial turf at Etihad

So tell me, how many games did you play at AFL level to pass judgement on anyones character?

Or do you just big note when you are behind a keyboard?

IMO you are pretty piss weak to critisise Winmars courage, but then again thats the modi's operandi of an internet hero

[mad saint guy]

Winmar isn't ready. He copped a decent bump and went down like he'd been hit by a truck, and when he finally got to his feet he could barely move because of his shoulder (which wasn't seriously injured). Then the tackle obviously hurt him but again, he just lay on the ground motionless for the next minute. He is going to come across plenty of hits line this if he's going to be an AFL player and he can't lie on the ground gathering himself for 60 seconds every time he's tackled. He has good footskills and some pace, but right now he doesn't get enough of the ball, doesn't have the body for AFL and doesn't have the mental toughness.

Cripps is another who doesn't yet have the body but is playing the sub role brilliantly by running clear of tired opposition defenders to run onto loose balls in the forward line. In a contested midfield role he would be slaughtered. Siposs is still getting the feel for it but has shown a whole lot if talent. Must stay in. And Steven finally got a crack as an inside mid and showed a lot.

[PJ]

The raving on here about a saints team that got over the line against an already ordinary Melbourne outfit that was completely depleted amazes me.

haven't heard any raving on here and "completely depleted" is a bit of an exaggeration - what maybe 5 out. Bit over the top.

[Teflon]

Steven does appear slow at the top level but I was wrapttosee him lead the clearances with 7 and get good tackle numbers.........the "clangers" worried me a little and he does slip over a lot does jack....

Keep him in the middle.

[Junction Oval]

There are several comments Moods, that others would agree with. I suppose that it is Saints supporters trying to support their team, especially the younger blokes.

[Moods]

And what's with the childish 'I'd like to see you do better' retorts? What are we in primary school?

Mate, you are the one critisising an 18 y.o. courage after they had their head smacked into the artificial turf at Etihad

So tell me, how many games did you play at AFL level to pass judgement on anyones character?

Or do you just big note when you are behind a keyboard?

IMO you are pretty piss weak to critisise Winmars courage, but then again thats the modi's operandi of an internet hero

Not his courage - his toughness. To me they're different things. To you they may be one and the same so I can possibly see why you're getting yourself all worked up.

Not with the - how many games did you ever play? retort again Joffa. Surely you can do better than that? I played footy for 20 years, for all you know some of that may have been at the highest level, to me it's completely irrelevant. When I played footy there were definitely times I shirked it. (not that I ever accused Winmar of shirking it) Once again, not sure the relevance of that. Wasn't aware I was passing judgement on Winmar's character though Just reckon he's in for a hell of a shock, b/c AFL is bloody tough, and right now he doesn't look ready - imo. He's probably a great kid, which is a hell of a lot more important than being a tough footballer.

I must say though you are the most aggressive accountant I've ever come across. You must have loved it when this new thing called footy forums was introduced 7-8 years ago on the internet. All that pent up aggression you can now unleash on a keyboard without any real repercussions. You can scream, abuse, label ppl, and the worst thing that happens is you occasionally score a holiday away from the forum for a couple of weeks. Beats having to confront ppl in real life doesn't it

Calm down mate - I hope like hell that I'm wrong on all counts and Winmar turns out to be a an absolute gun - as well as the others. I obviously haven't made my mind up on most of them yet, but just saying what I think at this given time - if that's ok?

[St Ick]

In the NAB cup round 1 clash with Lions/Dons I sat in front of Nicholas' family/friends. Every time he went within cooeee of the ball (when he finally got on the field) they would scream his name, and he would promptly fall over, get pushed aside or stay away from the pack - the 'Go Nicholas' screams would be followed by, 'its ok, he's ok'. Funny to start with but bloody annoying after a couple of hours, I'm afraid thats my major thought every time i see his name in any sort of print or see him on the field. We can't expect too much of him, but I really worry that we got him due to name and not attributes - time will tell and one match isn't enough to make any sort of decision about him.

One thing though, he did handball it directly to the opposition (or consider it) a handful of times. I haven't been on SS this weekend so sorry if its been covered but it seemed the jumpers clashed and he in particular kept getting confused on the night.

[Quixote]

Far too early to judge on Winmar but I'd give him another run, at Subi next week - see what happens.

One thing that worried me about Winmar (and other debut players in general) was his reluctance to assert himself into the game. Far too often I see younger players letting the older players do all the leading, ball-demanding, extracting - generally, making the play. The younger player is either too hesitant, too happy to play second fiddle or too preoccupied in fulfilling their 'role' to really make an impact. I would like to see a younger player come in and a) be given the license or b) have the plums to play like he's been there a while.


Agree Cripps is playing the Sub role quite well. Still waiting to see if that's his only role for now. And, although granted still a slight kid, he hasn't yet screamed at me, 'Jeez, this kid goes in hard'. Some of his kicking has been hit and miss but I think this will definitely improve. Overall I see enough potential in the new #35.

Siposs has shown many many positives that have been discussed and really only needs to get more of it and we have one hell of a draft steal.

Jack Steven aint that slow. He's not lightning, but he's above average I reckon for speed. It's his decision making at the moment that needs to be quicker. His football nous is excellent and for mine he must spend more time near the ball.

Armo is going very well.

Some people probably forget it, but Lyon is actually trying to get the balance of this team right, week by week. He is by no means stagnant and is trying quite a few different things. Some are working, too. This week was another step forwards. People last year talked about our downtime, or period of readjustment after Riewoldt went down.

I find it funny they have not made similar comparisons this season, with almost certainly our most important player out of the team.

Essentially, we're still working our way through life without Lenny. Which, incidentally, will stand us in good stead for the future.

Through Lyon's experimentations and steady improvement from our players, if we can find a way to get the clearance, stoppage and contested ball stats back in our favour - we're going to be a bloody hard team to beat again. Especially, should it come down to it, in September.


Touch wood on that last point though.

[mad saint guy]

One thing that worried me about Winmar (and other debut players in general) was his reluctance to assert himself into the game. Far too often I see younger players letting the older players do all the leading, ball-demanding, extracting - generally, making the play. The younger player is either too hesitant, too happy to play second fiddle or too preoccupied in fulfilling their 'role' to really make an impact. I would like to see a younger player come in and a) be given the license or b) have the plums to play like he's been there a while.

That's a very valid point and is something that we don't see enough of at St Kilda. The youthful enthusiasm and confidence we see so often giving teams a boost is largely absent at the saints. The kids seem to be so concerned with playing their role and adhering to the structure (based around the small group of guns) that they don't really try to put a stamp on the game. The only kid I've seen in the last few years with this confidence is actually Archer; he doesn't have the most ability but he wills himself into every contest he can get to and seems to believe that he can win them. Siposs also has to a lesser extent, but will learn to demand the ball more with experience.

[saint66au]

One thing that worried me about Winmar (and other debut players in general) was his reluctance to assert himself into the game. Far too often I see younger players letting the older players do all the leading, ball-demanding, extracting - generally, making the play. The younger player is either too hesitant, too happy to play second fiddle or too preoccupied in fulfilling their 'role' to really make an impact. I would like to see a younger player come in and a) be given the license or b) have the plums to play like he's been there a while.

That's a very valid point and is something that we don't see enough of at St Kilda. The youthful enthusiasm and confidence we see so often giving teams a boost is largely absent at the saints. The kids seem to be so concerned with playing their role and adhering to the structure (based around the small group of guns) that they don't really try to put a stamp on the game. The only kid I've seen in the last few years with this confidence is actually Archer; he doesn't have the most ability but he wills himself into every contest he can get to and seems to believe that he can win them. Siposs also has to a lesser extent, but will learn to demand the ball more with experience.

You think this is why our debutants never seem to get more than 6-8 touches and a mark or two while other teams kids sem to do much better (even if its not a consistant thing?)

[bigcarl]

Steven does appear slow at the top level but I was wrapt to see him lead the clearances with 7 and get good tackles. numbers.........the "clangers" worried me a little and he does slip over a lot does jack. Keep him in the middle.

agree. he's strong, a quick decision maker and can get plenty of the ball. keep him there.

[mad saint guy]

You think this is why our debutants never seem to get more than 6-8 touches and a mark or two while other teams kids sem to do much better (even if its not a consistant thing?)

I think it's a factor, yes. The way the kids are taught and the extent to which they are encouraged and empowered seems to be very different to other clubs.

[plugger66]

This is how it is IMO. Lets start with cuz, a highly skilled player who has only played 6 games in the ones. Less than any other regular.Plenty of improvement and may eventually be a good footballer. Steven has had so many injuries but will make it. Not sure at what level but should be a very good player. Now the next 2 are over the top. Cripps has kicked 7 goals but at the moment he looks a little timid and needs to get that out of his game. Obviously gets in positions to kick goals but is a fair way off it. Siposs is next. Even further from it but looks very exciting. Johnson, who knows but probably should be who cares. As for the rest,well lets see but 2 regualrs would be ahead of the AFL average at those picks.

[Winmar7Fan]

He may never have the silky skills, take graceful high flying marks, kick fluently on both sides of his body hitting players on the chest and easily bombing goals anywhere up to 60 meters out but WHO CARES ?????

Just having that name running around is enough. I've missed that guy like hell and this is like the second coming of Christ for me.

The memories, the excitement. It's taking me back to the 80s and the best football days of my life and the player that electrified me like no other.

All it's going to take is one high mark and a commentator to yell out WINMARRRRRRRRRRRR and I'm going to literally c-- in my pants.

Also the Nicholas thing doesn't do it for me either. I will put up with it for now but once he steps up a bit and earns it a little I want the name to go the full transition.

[evertonfc]

Nine touches in your first AFL game isn't to be sneezed at.

I don't think he did too badly.

I'd keep him in the side, let him know that he's going to get a few games before being dropped again.

Keep him hungry, let him give it his best shot.

Thrilled to see him get a go to begin with...hopefully he can get 5+ games this year.