Gram and McEvoy out

[SainterK]

In reference to Gram getting "hard balls", how many "hard balls" do Milne, Dempster and Dawson get?

They are all sweaters who stand on the outside of packs waiting for the easy disposal - plus they provide no run and carry when they get the pill given to them.

In terms of contribution to to team, I would have Gram (and Clarke and Koschitzke) in before any of those 3 every day of the week.

Milne may be dangerous if he snags a disposal close to goal, but up the field contributing to the rotations all players of his size (and experience) need to contribute to these days he is an absolute waste of space.

Dawson stands at the back of packs waiting for the "give" and then gets caught because he only has one side.

Dempster brings nothing.

ditto Baker - except evening up for Cripps in an illegal manner.

Blake also has no offensive side to his game because he has no leg speed and ordinary disposal skills when he does get it - hence the sideways chips.

It's quite simplistic to look at a taggers stats, you need to take into account how much or little their opponent does.

Strange comparison to Gram.

[Thinline]

In reference to Gram getting "hard balls", how many "hard balls" do Milne, Dempster and Dawson get?

They are all sweaters who stand on the outside of packs waiting for the easy disposal - plus they provide no run and carry when they get the pill given to them.

In terms of contribution to to team, I would have Gram (and Clarke and Koschitzke) in before any of those 3 every day of the week.

Milne may be dangerous if he snags a disposal close to goal, but up the field contributing to the rotations all players of his size (and experience) need to contribute to these days he is an absolute waste of space.

Dawson stands at the back of packs waiting for the "give" and then gets caught because he only has one side.

Dempster brings nothing.

ditto Baker - except evening up for Cripps in an illegal manner.

Blake also has no offensive side to his game because he has no leg speed and ordinary disposal skills when he does get it - hence the sideways chips.

They are bad comparisons to Gram. Milne is a goal scoring small forward with good disposal skills. Dempster and Dawson are both primarily defensive players who have the ability to limit the game of their opponent.

They all have other strings to their Bow unlike Gram who does not have a defensive side at all. The other problem Gram has is that he seems to have lost a yard or two of pace. So where as he used to be one of our few guys who could actually break the lines he no longer seems to be able to do it.

They also all get slightly more contested possessions than Gram. When Gram turns it on he is a very good player but still extremely outside and erratic with his disposal. However, the last truly fine game he had was the 2009 GF.

When I saw the lads post Adelaide at the airport Gram looked very proppy and his gait spoke of a bloke with either really shitty hips or really shitty groins. He's had groin troubles before. Methinks he might be hanging on for grim life. Sometimes the old body just packs it in. He's no where near the player he can be and/or once was.

[SainterK]

Thinline, sometimes a player can still think injured.

I reckon Luke Ball did for a long time.

Gram shuffles when he runs, you'd think he is still battling with his troubles, but is he?

Might take this omission to make him realise he needs to give everything, without worrying about his body, let Misson worry about that.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

In reference to Gram getting "hard balls", how many "hard balls" do Milne, Dempster and Dawson get?

Are you kidding? You're comparing 2 of the Saints most contested players to their least...

Milne is a starvation forward, nearly 50% of his possessions are won in a contest...

Week after week, Dawson is amonst the Saints leaders in contested possessions, because after a spoil/contest, he's willing to peel off and dig the ball out for teammates.

Dempster is a contest specialist - man-on-man his job is typically to reduce the effectiveness of opponents.

Jason Gram is the most outside player on the Saints, winning nearly 80% of his touches by recieving from other players.

[Thinline]

Thinline, sometimes a player can still think injured.

I reckon Luke Ball did for a long time.

Gram shuffles when he runs, you'd think he is still battling with his troubles, but is he?

Might take this omission to make him realise he needs to give everything, without worrying about his body, let Misson worry about that.

Or else he's chronically sore and the needles no longer work.

Either way, deserved omission.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

In reference to Gram getting "hard balls", how many "hard balls" do Milne, Dempster and Dawson get?

All quite similar actually. Milne tops those four, winning 40 contested possessions this season (10th at the club). But seeing as Dawson has missed a match, let's go by averages. Dawson averages 6 per match, Mile 5.7, Dempster 5 and Gram 5.

In comparison to total possessions (both contested and uncontested), 48% of Dawson's possessions are contested. 40.2% of Dempster's are contested. 39.6% of Milne's are contested. And rounding out the four you mentioned is Gram, with 23.3% of his possessions won in a contest, the fourth lowest at the club.

They are all sweaters who stand on the outside of packs waiting for the easy disposal - plus they provide no run and carry when they get the pill given to them.

Gram also leads the club this season for Handball Receives. Coupled with his low contested possession rate, is that not standing on the outside of a pack waiting for the easy disposal?

This is better than my post, my stats were from 2009. Who are the 3 who've slipped below him in CP%?

In Gram's defense, it should also be said that handball receives are a skill of their own, and generally represent a high workrate player. As you note, it's the lack of "winning his own ball" to go with it, and then his efficiency with his "uncontested" touches that's cause for concern with Gram.

What bothers me more with Gram is that it looks to me like he at times delberately arrives 2nd at the contest rather than going headlong to get it. If he were a great tackler, that might work... but he's not. In just about every contest stat, he's struggling. I gather he's also not getting the run he has in the past, though I haven't seen the "running bounces" number.

When Gram's at his best, he wins loose ball to boost his contest rate, and runs all day to provide an option for teammates, breaking lines, and forcing opposition zones to respect his ability to go long with his kicks.

This year it's been stand at the back of the pack, wait for someone else to win it, thump it long, turn it over.

He can do better.

[SainterK]

Jason Gram is the most outside player on the Saints, winning nearly 80% of his touches by recieving from other players.

Which the coaching staff would probably forgive, if he hit targets, and was highly involved in the scoring chain.

It may not be about how he gets the ball, more what he does with it?

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Jason Gram is the most outside player on the Saints, winning nearly 80% of his touches by recieving from other players.

Which the coaching staff would probably forgive, if he hit targets, and was highly involved in the scoring chain.

It may not be about how he gets the ball, more what he does with it?

Agreed - being an outside player is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself (though it tends to have a poor reputation on the internet). As noted above, leading the team in handball receives actually can be indicative of a good workrate. Ben Cousins used to own this statistic in his prime while running taggers into the ground with speed and endurance.

Given past selection/dropping of senior players, I'd bet that whatever it is he's doing/not doing is more specific than that. Lyon doesn't drop his senior players for giggles, and he's always maintained that both Milne and Dal Santo maintained a standard after being dropped that they were failing in prior.

The theory that he's hurt is as good a chance as any too. Easy to see where the idea of dropping an outsider comes from on a team struggling for hard ball... but from what I understand of Winmar, we're not exactly selecting the next Luke Ball.

[samoht]

We need players who can supply some spread and run - when Gram was doing that he was a valuable contributor.
In one game at his peak - he had more bounces than the opposing team's 22 players.

If he's no longer running and bouncing - and seeing that he does not win contested ball - his value is diminished, he becomes our worst player.

So if Winmar can just run and carry the ball - that would be an immediate improvement over Gram in his current form.

[evertonfc]

Disappointed to see Gram dropped.

I feel he's one of the few players we have who breaks lines - much better than Gilbert does and more aggressively than Sam Fisher does [Chips, who has been better than Gram, tends to play deeper, so that's not a criticism of him].

His input has been sullied by the fact that we've only played with one key tall for most of the season. He's not a great kick, but he can get onto them, and when we had Roo & Kosi up forward, with Milne on the deck, it made him much more effective. Now with Siposs there, I'd have thought it would be critical to get a player who can shoot a long, quick ball to the forward line before the opposition can get defenders back.

He can carry the ball 10m, kick it 55m - and that's a transition that can bust a forward press.

He has trouble kicking across his body; that is, he needs to be running in a straight line before kicking effectively. Too often he is running on a diagonal and then trying to kick long - often resulting in a mis-hit.

But he has genuine pace and, when we're playing confidently, offers a great offensive weapon in defence. I thought that shone through against Carlton.

McEvoy has gone well this year. Not a ruckman just yet, for his rucking skills are average. Around the ground he's been quite good. Still can look a bit too dopey at times - not a 'natural' like Stanley - but he has a will to make it.

Why we are bringing Blake back, I don't know - I can only assume he will pinch hit alongside Kosi in the ruck. Otherwise I'd rather see Tom Simpkin get a run to play in defence, or even Will Johnson, who could keep his development going by playing some senior footy in defence.

Either way, let's hope Winmar and Heyne get a run. We need to find out if these boys can make it, so let's get some games into their legs.

[Animal Enclosure]

Wrapped to see Gram dropped.

Everton, all that you was once true. Now he isn't prepared/able to run hard enough to break any lines.

His kicking was always questionable. At times this year his disposal has been effected by trying to avoid any body contactn from the opposition (one turnover that I clearly remember was a panicked handball to an opponent in response to someone running at him).

I don't believe that any AFL player is soft or scared but Gram is probably the closest to that description that I have seen. It's terribly frustrating as I think he has so much unfulfilled talent.

[saintjake]

In reference to Gram getting "hard balls", how many "hard balls" do Milne, Dempster and Dawson get?

All quite similar actually. Milne tops those four, winning 40 contested possessions this season (10th at the club). But seeing as Dawson has missed a match, let's go by averages. Dawson averages 6 per match, Mile 5.7, Dempster 5 and Gram 5.

In comparison to total possessions (both contested and uncontested), 48% of Dawson's possessions are contested. 40.2% of Dempster's are contested. 39.6% of Milne's are contested. And rounding out the four you mentioned is Gram, with 23.3% of his possessions won in a contest, the fourth lowest at the club.

They are all sweaters who stand on the outside of packs waiting for the easy disposal - plus they provide no run and carry when they
get the pill given to them.

Gram also leads the club this season for Handball Receives. Coupled with his low contested possession rate, is that not standing on the outside of a pack waiting for the easy disposal?

So so so good

[degruch]

Wrapped to see Gram dropped.

+1...but about 5 weeks later than I would have liked. I compared him to Kane Cornes then, as a top possession 'getter', and top possession waster. Kane Cornes was dropped by Port that week, for this very reason, but we persisted with the turn-over king. Hopefully this is a jolt Grammy needs...he can spend more time reflecting on his own poor form than sprouting off in public about others. Glilbert would have to be close inline for the next cab...his game against Judd was pretty good though, and that saved him from being the first.

[defacto]

glad to see gram dropped. year too late if you ask me.

[plugger66]

In reference to Gram getting "hard balls", how many "hard balls" do Milne, Dempster and Dawson get?

They are all sweaters who stand on the outside of packs waiting for the easy disposal - plus they provide no run and carry when they get the pill given to them.

In terms of contribution to to team, I would have Gram (and Clarke and Koschitzke) in before any of those 3 every day of the week.

Milne may be dangerous if he snags a disposal close to goal, but up the field contributing to the rotations all players of his size (and experience) need to contribute to these days he is an absolute waste of space.

Dawson stands at the back of packs waiting for the "give" and then gets caught because he only has one side.

Dempster brings nothing.

ditto Baker - except evening up for Cripps in an illegal manner.

Blake also has no offensive side to his game because he has no leg speed and ordinary disposal skills when he does get it - hence the sideways chips.

Yep Milne is worse than Gram. Dont worry that he has played 200 games and kicked over 400 goals and has been better than Gram every year they have played together and surely forget the fact they arent competing for the same spot. Also Gram at FB would be a worry and Gram tagging a forward could also be a worry. Footy is that simple. Just pick your best players and dont worry about positions. Who cares if we end up with 19 backman or 17 forwards.

[degruch]

Who cares if we end up with 19 backman or 17 forwards.

That's a 14 goal head start to the opposition...I'm very worried about this new direction. Or, do you propose we not start them all on the ground at the same time?

[sunsaint]

Gram is being pilloried here as an outside receiver who is not contributing with run & carry - when the simple fact is contested ball clearances started going south last year.
McEvoy ??? he is quite simply a better ruckman than Kosi.

If we lose this week then Lyon ("... bring in players who will have a go) will have start elevating the rookies

[To the top]

On page 3 of this subject I put "Gram - he is an outside player who can run and dispose over distance" (how often is he the St Kilda player who gains most metres?) "creating opportunity for small and medium forwards with pace to run onto loose balls. If we are not winning the clearances we are not giving him the feeds he requires to be effective".

The point I am making is that the likes of Koschitzke, Gram and Clarke bring more to the St Kilda team than do the likes of Milne, Baker, Dawson, Blake, McQualter, Gamble and Dempster - and Geary and Eddy.

I am not saying that Gram should play full back - obviously.

In fact, I have contributed elsewhere that I would like to see Johnson given the opportunity at full back.

His body size, movement and aggression plus his experience in defence previously indicate that he could make a success of that position.

Plus he now has the experience of having played forward.

We have to transition past the likes of Milne (regardless of being over 30 with over 200 games and over 400 goals therefore one of our most experienced players his only contribution is playing out of a forward pocket and jagging goals against weak teams. He can not use his experience to push into the midfield and contribute toward turning the flow of a game which is against us - witness yet again against Hawthorn to add to how many other poor performances when we are looking for our senior players to stand up and lead? Not Milne, he still runs onto the ground last and then proceeds to do his own thing exclusively instead of leading from the front. No doubt he also is content in averaging 2 goals a game!).

There are similarly assessed reasons why I have named the other players I have.

The likes of Cripps, Siposs, Smith, Johnson and hopefully some others currently with minimal AFL experience, plus Hayes returning, will be at the expense of the players I have named.

Not at the expense of Koschitzke, Gram or Clarke.

Apart from Dawson, all those I have named are struggling flank players.

The player I would like to see in action again because of his size and because he has mobility and some bags of goals to his name is Cahill.

[plugger66]

On page 3 of this subject I put "Gram - he is an outside player who can run and dispose over distance" (how often is he the St Kilda player who gains most metres?) "creating opportunity for small and medium forwards with pace to run onto loose balls. If we are not winning the clearances we are not giving him the feeds he requires to be effective".

The point I am making is that the likes of Koschitzke, Gram and Clarke bring more to the St Kilda team than do the likes of Milne, Baker, Dawson, Blake, McQualter, Gamble and Dempster - and Geary and Eddy.

I am not saying that Gram should play full back - obviously.

In fact, I have contributed elsewhere that I would like to see Johnson given the opportunity at full back.

His body size, movement and aggression plus his experience in defence previously indicate that he could make a success of that position.

Plus he now has the experience of having played forward.

We have to transition past the likes of Milne (regardless of being over 30 with over 200 games and over 400 goals therefore one of our most experienced players his only contribution is playing out of a forward pocket and jagging goals against weak teams. He can not use his experience to push into the midfield and contribute toward turning the flow of a game which is against us - witness yet again against Hawthorn to add to how many other poor performances when we are looking for our senior players to stand up and lead? Not Milne, he still runs onto the ground last and then proceeds to do his own thing exclusively instead of leading from the front. No doubt he also is content in averaging 2 goals a game!).

There are similarly assessed reasons why I have named the other players I have.

The likes of Cripps, Siposs, Smith, Johnson and hopefully some others currently with minimal AFL experience, plus Hayes returning, will be at the expense of the players I have named.

Not at the expense of Koschitzke, Gram or Clarke.

Apart from Dawson, all those I have named are struggling flank players.

The player I would like to see in action again because of his size and because he has mobility and some bags of goals to his name is Cahill.

I dont get what you on about. Gram and Raph are struggling flankers and are struggling much more than Milne for example. Then you want to play Johnson at FB where he hasnt played for about a year. He is playing forward now and finally you want to give Cahill a go who has hardly been a regular at Sandy. It is very inconsistant thinking.

[To the top]

P33, you must be a natural Abbott supporter?

Can not comprehend past 3 words!

"The player I would like to see in action again" does not say at AFL level.

It says what it says.

I would like to see him playing footy again - and hopefully moving well, kicking goals and pressuring for an AFL spot.

I do not know why I am giving comprehension lessons to an Abbott clone!

What a waste of time!!

[realdeal]

On page 3 of this subject I put "Gram - he is an outside player who can run and dispose over distance" (how often is he the St Kilda player who gains most metres?) "creating opportunity for small and medium forwards with pace to run onto loose balls. If we are not winning the clearances we are not giving him the feeds he requires to be effective".

The point I am making is that the likes of Koschitzke, Gram and Clarke bring more to the St Kilda team than do the likes of Milne, Baker, Dawson, Blake, McQualter, Gamble and Dempster - and Geary and Eddy.

I am not saying that Gram should play full back - obviously.

In fact, I have contributed elsewhere that I would like to see Johnson given the opportunity at full back.

His body size, movement and aggression plus his experience in defence previously indicate that he could make a success of that position.

Plus he now has the experience of having played forward.

We have to transition past the likes of Milne (regardless of being over 30 with over 200 games and over 400 goals therefore one of our most experienced players his only contribution is playing out of a forward pocket and jagging goals against weak teams. He can not use his experience to push into the midfield and contribute toward turning the flow of a game which is against us - witness yet again against Hawthorn to add to how many other poor performances when we are looking for our senior players to stand up and lead? Not Milne, he still runs onto the ground last and then proceeds to do his own thing exclusively instead of leading from the front. No doubt he also is content in averaging 2 goals a game!).

There are similarly assessed reasons why I have named the other players I have.

The likes of Cripps, Siposs, Smith, Johnson and hopefully some others currently with minimal AFL experience, plus Hayes returning, will be at the expense of the players I have named.

Not at the expense of Koschitzke, Gram or Clarke.

Apart from Dawson, all those I have named are struggling flank players.

The player I would like to see in action again because of his size and because he has mobility and some bags of goals to his name is Cahill.

I think the point that everyone else and the coaching staff is making is that if Gram was actually doing that then awesome! He'd be an important part of the team still like he was, HOWEVER, he's not playing anything like that atm..!

and im not sure its fair to say 'bring more to the table' when comparing Gram with some of the other players mentioned. Some are offensive attacking players and some are defensive players that stop opponents. Its apples and oranges..

[degruch]

I think the point that everyone else and the coaching staff is making is that if Gram was actually doing that then awesome! He'd be an important part of the team still like he was, HOWEVER, he's not playing anything like that atm..!

EXACTLY!!! (IMHO)

Would love him back at his best, but he's far from it currently...we all know he has the ability, but he hasn't got the attitude right now.

[SainterK]

I think the point that everyone else and the coaching staff is making is that if Gram was actually doing that then awesome! He'd be an important part of the team still like he was, HOWEVER, he's not playing anything like that atm..!

EXACTLY!!! (IMHO)

Would love him back at his best, but he's far from it currently...we all know he has the ability, but he hasn't got the attitude right now.

Maybe this kick up the bum will be what inspires him to work harder.

He actually got dropped once before, can't remember if it was last year, or the one previous?

Made it back in though without missing a game, because someone else missed?

[evertonfc]

Would you lot drop Goddard then?

[sunsaint]

Would you lot drop Goddard then?

yes but clearly Lyon and those here wont.
and that eats deep into the pysche of those that ARE dropped
I have asked before, but wasnt Goddard told to go away during the pre season?