We can beat the pies

[White Winmar]

Having watched Collingwood closely this year, I believe they are far from unbeatable. True, they are a cut above the rest of the competition at the moment, but they are no better than the saints were in 2009. While we're not in the right frame of mind, or in form right now, when we do hit our straps we have the tools to take them on and beat them.

I base this around the following. Collingwood's defence is what I call very "blue collar", in that is it's not overflowing with skill. Whilst they have been good as a unit, individually they can be exposed. Toovey, Tarrant, O'Brien, Shaw, Maxwell and Johnson when he's down there are all completely one-sided. Did you see O'Brien's attempt to kick with his left foot in yesterday's game? I now know why he always runs around onto his right. He made Karmichael Hunt look like Darren Jarman. The same applies to the others. When forced onto their wrong side, they go back, across, or try to take on their opponents. I believe this was what Ross was trying to exploit in the 2010 GF's when he played two defensive forwards. It worked well in the first GF, but we were exhausted by the second, and we fell into disarray.

I know it's revisiting the past, but if we can recapture the fanatical defending of the front half that we saw in 2009-2010, I believe we can beat them. Unfortunately, our past two forward defensive efforts mirror the mood of the team. One forward 50 tackle against Essendon and just five against Brisbane. In 09-10 I believe we averaged around twenty. If we can raise the effort, I believe the filth can be exposed. Essendon managed to do it for prolonged periods yesterday, but simply ran out of gas. A more mature and seasoned opponent may have produced a different result.

The big if, of course is can the team recapture the spirit, intensity and desire to come up to scratch again? Make no mistake, the trauma of coming up empty-handed after three consecutive Grand Finals would take a heavy toll on any team. The contrast between us and the filth in terms of confidence and mood could not be greater. Like all trauma, it takes time to heal, and the scars of the past two years have definitely left their mark. I have faith that we have the collective character to eventually overcome the past and recapture the essence of "Saints Footy". People like Ross Lyon, Nick Riewoldt and Brendon Goddard are not the types to sulk for too long. The season is still young and there is plenty of time to recover. The win against the Lions was an ugly, but crucial part of the recovery process. That result can be built upon, but we need a big follow up effort against the Crows this week. If we win, then momentum starts to build and the healing process will have started. Once we have some momentum going, we will be hard to stop.

The next month will be like a mini finals series in May instead of September. At the end of the month we should know our fate. I believe we can still rescue this year and more importantly, mount a significant challenge to the filth.

[Moods]

Like the positivity

My own opinion is that our lack of fwd tackling has as much to do with how we set up as to do with blokes not prepared to tackle at the moment. Whenever it's kicked into our fwd line it appears we're outnumbered 4-1 every time. Very hard to lay a tackle when the defenders just flip the ball around then run it out. Our fwds push too far up the ground so if our entries aren't precise then the backs clear the ball easily.

I reckon we need to sort out our setups and structures, THEN we can analyse who's tackling and who refuses to tackle.

[Thinline]

I don't believe the secret lies so much in the quality of their defenders but in the amount of space that exist behind their defenders.

They roll the dice, commit numbers to the fall, and even if it doesn't work they escape punishment because opposition teams go back or sideways to settle the won possession - which is to play where the Pies players are.

If you back the players to win the one on one, move it super quick, and receivers get their skates on you may score pretty heavily against them and in a hurry.

I think back to that ripping Rd 14 2009 Cats Saints game where we just went nuts early by doing something vaguely similar.

Of course it's just a theory. Maybe they are just too good in the one on ones.

Still, I reckon someone will do it. I thought Essendon might, but they didn't really play very cleanly and got off on the wrong foot by conceding a deficit early . The Dogs could if they had balls. Freo might. Geelong could. Hawthorn could. Carlton could. We? Not sure yet, because to do it requires absolute faith and utmost confidence in teammates.

[sainter#4]

i think we can take them aswell.

there are two keys for me.

our defensive pressure, if we can choke them and prevent their overlapping run or cause the likes of obrien, shaw, johnson etc to turn it over then it gives us half a chance.

the other point for me is our ball movement.move it in quickly whether its a pin point pass or a long bomb - just as long as it gives kosi, roo or even milney a 50-50 chance.we can win it.

[matrix]

i honestly dont think we are quick enough

[Thinline]

i honestly dont think we are quick enough

By foot, on foot or by hand. No where near accurate enough.

Kind of relying on a Pies low point coinciding with our peak.

That's what i think.

Still, will be delighted to be proven wrong.

[The Fireman]

i honestly dont think we are quick enough

this

[White Winmar]

Swift and precise ball movement is the key. Leg speed is overrated. What good is pace when you can't deliver accurately? The ball travels much faster than any player. The filth is as vulnerable to defensive pressure as any other team. They are not exactly overburdened with leg speed themselves.

[bigcarl]

Whenever it's kicked into our fwd line it appears we're outnumbered 4-1 every time.

correct. too many numbers behind the ball.

[samoht]

We can't control our poor skills - so we need to do something to upset their precision ball movement and their teamwork and the way they combine !

Playing one on one and unrelenting pressure on their ball carriers (Shaw Thomas,, Johnson, O'Brien, Maxwell, Swan ) is the only way to get to Collingwood.

Essendon in one passage laid 5 successive tackles in their forward line in 5 seconds vs the Collingood defenders.
That's 1 forward tackle per second !
That's the sort of commitment and level of intensity that is required.

If we give them an inch - they'll take a mile.

[spert]

I still reckon Collingwood's backline is vunerable, the trouble is that our forward line in the GF replay, didn't put up a whimper. Unless we get more out of our CHF and FF positions, forget winning premierships at this stage.

[samoht]

Shaw, Thomas and O'Brien are the barometer.

Shaw and Thomas got 28 and 25 possessions each and O'Brien got 18 possessions against Essendon - providing plenty of run and rebound.
That's conceding too many possessions to them.

Almost every 1 of their run and carry possessions equates to 2 possessions in their impact , given their delivery skills.

Whichever team can keep this trio down to under 15 pressured possessions each stands a good chance of beating the Pies.

[jroberts:)]

Are the pies really that fast by feet? I was thinking their ability to move the ball around the ground so fast makes them look fast! I think the saints have been lacking in that area. The ball is taking far too long to make it into the forward line, resulting in the opposition defense manning up and spoiling. When we play essendon, the turnovers go the other way so quickly, it doesn't give our back-line a chance to defend. We just need to be able to rush it up, not play into danger. Just a thought, but they can match the pies when they're in form! Just look at GF1 as an example!

[stevie]

Whilst they are a very good team, all this talk of pies being some sort of unbeatable machine is rubbish, BEFORE yesterdays match. They are nowhere near the Cats at their peak of 08/09 or us from 09! They do not yet have the mental toughness.

At times yesterday they looked slow and tired and it's only Rd 5! Plus a lot if their players were down, eg swan, dawes and sidebum had a shocker

They will not go through undefeated(not that malthouse would care)

Still bemused why no one has ran through penisbury and Thomas yet? That will keep them quiet for the rest of any game as BJ proved in 09

[SaintPav]

i honestly dont think we are quick enough

this

...and we're not good enough.

Lenny and MG out doesn't help either.

[SaintPav]

I still reckon Collingwood's backline is vunerable, the trouble is that our forward line in the GF replay, didn't put up a whimper. Unless we get more out of our CHF and FF positions, forget winning premierships at this stage.

Every backline is vulnerable depending on how the ball comes in. The game is won and lost in the midfield and in the clinches and because ours is not good enough at this stage, we will not get the opportunity to put O'Brien, Shaw etc under any sort of reasonable pressure. I'm happy for someone to tell me why I'm wrong but at this stage were getting smashed in all the important indicators like contested possesion and clearances. I'm talking smashed not just beaten.

[Schillaci]

You must be on drugs. I'll have some...they must be good.

[SaintPav]

You must be on drugs. I'll have some...they must be good.

what are you talking about?

[Schillaci]

You must be on drugs. I'll have some...they must be good.

what are you talking about?[/quote
thread title

[happy feet]

I have notices the Pies do three things regularly.

1. They run in an shepherd the player on the mark. Is this legal?

2. Well before the ball comeis in they manhandle opposition players so that they are well out of position when the ball comes in.

3. When in a 1 on 1 marking contest, they come from behind and work the oppostion player under the ball.

Has anyone else noticed this?

[plugger66]

I have notices the Pies do three things regularly.

1. They run in an shepherd the player on the mark. Is this legal?

2. Well before the ball comeis in they manhandle opposition players so that they are well out of position when the ball comes in.

3. When in a 1 on 1 marking contest, they come from behind and work the oppostion player under the ball.

Has anyone else noticed this?

They block on the mark once play on is called. Very smart and any club can do it. Havent notice them do the other 2 anymore than any other club.

[stevie]

Good game today the cats will match the filth hawks maybe but they have too many dumb players who go missing

[Moccha]

i honestly dont think we are quick enough

You mean good enough

[Cro]

I have notices the Pies do three things regularly.

1. They run in an shepherd the player on the mark. Is this legal?

They stand just behind the man on the mark and wait for play on to be called then move in.

[thejiggingsaint]

The way we are playing at the moment? NOT ON YOUR NELLY!!!!!!!
However, give us a few good results to get some confidence back in the group. Give the kids a chance to get some game time in to them, and who knows? I reckon, we're very much in the doldrums ATM but I'm not yet ready to tear up the betting slip!!!!!!
GO SAINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!