Our non existent Forward 50 tackles

[samoht]

Let's do some maths - I know it's school holidays !

We have 18 players on the field at any given time during the match (let's forget the interchange players to simplify things).

Let's say on a very average tackle day we apply 54 tackles over the 18 players.

54 is not a big number - so I'm being conservative here.
So over 18 players - that's 3 tackles per player on average.

Forward Line -
We have 6 forwards - so we should end up with 18 tackles in our forward line - right ?
My suspicion is we're lucky to be averaging 5 forward50 tackles.

How lame is that ? - our forwards aren't kicking goals - can't they at least let their frustrations out by applying their fair share of tackles ?

I reckon it's pathetic.

[matrix]

i guess it depends on set ups, and how the ball is gong into the 50.
if its harvey and winmar like passes into the forwards and they kick a goal then forward 50 tackles would be less i guess.

but ya right
we have been rather slack in this dept this year (3 games in, hopefully easily turned around)
with all the kick ins from missed shots youd think we would be able to apply a tad more pressure when the ball is taken out from our forward 50 by the opp team

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

LOST: ST KILDA'S FRONTAL PRESSURE.
REWARD OFFERED

Where the f*** has it gone? We pioneered the thing a couple of years ago and it was an instrumental reason we won 20 in a row, but it now seems as though it worked so well we've decided to stop it altogether and watch everyone else do it!
WTF?

[Go Sainters Go]

To get your forward tackles up, the ball has to enter our forward 50 for starters. If so, and turnovers are high, that's when the tackles should be up.
If entering our forward 50 on a regular basis and we control the ball in our 50 and score more often than not, our forward tackles will be low.

[samoht]

The problem doesn't necessarily start and end in our forward 50.

Let's look beyond the forward 50 - how many tackles do our 6 forwards apply anywhere on the ground ?

It really probably is independent of how many times the ball enters our forward line.

For instance - in each of the 2 Grand Finals we may only have had a paltry 35 forward entries on average - but Shaw, Thomas, O'Brien and Maxwell still got the ball about 100 times in each of the games. We're only looking at 4 Collingwood backmen there.

What were our forward 6 doing when this was happening - i know our forwards didn't kick many goals - but how many tackles did they apply ?

No excuse for not applying tackles and doing their fair share !

Our backline must hate our forwards and their non- existent work ethic,

[Junction Oval]

It's all a bit too academic (too many variable) to be a worthwhile discussion.

You would need to watch the footage - what "should we" have tackled vs what we "actually" tackled.

[samoht]

It's a worthwhile discussion.

Nothing academic about it - you either do or you don't have a low tackle rate in the forward line.

We definitely do.

You say it's subject to variables.
- I hope so too, we need to crank the tackle rate up.
Harbrow, all the Collingwood half backs, Milburn keep getting their year high possessions against us - especially when it counts in big games. Not a good constant.

Our backline can't keep rescuing the ship- we've also lost Hayes and a few tackles there too.

there's something awry in the forward line - and if it's considered too academic or too hard to work out - or not worthwhile thinking about or discussing (I'm talking about the club think tank and our players now, not the forum of course) - then we're not going to fix it.

[jays]

its simple we are not fit we had no preseason where not running and chasing, around half way through the year we will kick into gear i hope

[samoht]

its simple we are not fit we had no preseason where not running and chasing, around half way through the year we will kick into gear i hope

so our forward line is not fit to tackle !

[dcstkfc]

It is a disgrace, and Milney, Roo, Gamble, Steven and Stanley were all pathetic in that respect in Round 3.

Get Ross to show them the Hawthorn Launceston game from 2009.

115 tackles. How have we fallen so much in this area when everyone else is rising.

[Junction Oval]

I like your reference dcstkfc to the Hawks match in Launcestion 09 - a great example of what needs to be done!

I am not disputing the poor tackle count. My point above, was that the realities need to be taken in the context of specifically, what tackles "should have" been laid in the game situation at the time. The numbers themselves don't tell the entire story, nor "who" was underperforming (probably all of them).

[Junction Oval]

I like your reference dcstkfc to the Hawks match in Launcestion 09 - a great example of what needs to be done!

I am not disputing the poor tackle count. My point above, was that the realities need to be taken in the context of specifically, what tackles "should have" been laid in the game situation at the time. The numbers themselves don't tell the entire story, nor "who" was underperforming (probably all of them).

[noob]

I know ! All our forwards are in the defensive half when the opposition have the ball.. and when we get the ball our forwards sprint back on the break and when the kick isn't executed.. we are too exhausted to put any pressure on.
Besides we rarely have more like 3 players in our half of the ground when its in the oppositions frontal half.

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

We had ONE solitary forward 50 tackle in Rd 3. That is terrible!

I think part of it is our careless delivery into the forward line - making it easy for opposition defenders to sweep it out.

Another reason is probably because our midfield has been on the back foot in each game, therefore not bein able to help trap the ball in our forward 50.

[plugger66]

Looks pretty obvious to me why this has happened especially last game. Firstly a 5 man forward line for most of the night. Mini out of the side. Stanley in the side and then we have Gamble. He thinks a tackle is your dick. Also if Peake or Gram are in the forward line, well they think a tackle is something you use in fishing. Also the Dons were moving the ball to quickly to tackle. They kicked it which makes tackling harder than when you force sides to handball.

[BigMart]

Hard to lay a tackle 3 on 1

They just play piggy in the middle with the defender.....and run the ball out

[SainterK]

To get your forward tackles up, the ball has to enter our forward 50 for starters. If so, and turnovers are high, that's when the tackles should be up.
If entering our forward 50 on a regular basis and we control the ball in our 50 and score more often than not, our forward tackles will be low.

So far in 2011, entries are up significantly.

Rd 1 52 times: 11 inside 50 tackles, 14 scoring shots
Rd 2 51 times: 19 inside 50 tackles, 30 scoring shots
Rd 3 48 times: 3 inside 50 tackles, 22 scorings shots

So Steven, McEvoy and Milne...the only guys who tackled inside 50 against Essendon.

[Legendary]

I reckon a big part of the problem is structural.

When Kosi plays deep in the goalsquare, despite the criticisms of him, he draws a very good opponent who is afraid to stray too far from him.

This allows Riewoldt to push out, generally with the freedom of only having one defender on him.

It also opens up space deep forward.

This means that when we move the ball quickly from the half back line or midfield, we have space to run into, and options pushing up from half forward, or options deep in the forward 50m if we need to go longer.

The other thing that Kosi does is knock the ball to ground in 50% of contests. This spillage means that it's 50/50 and the opposition don't get a free clearance and rebound from our F50.

It also helps our gameplan - the ball spilling to ground in our F50 allows our half forwards and midfielders time to push deep and lock the ball in, applying F50 tackles and creating pressure.

This in turn gives us more scoring opportunities.


So I reckon with Kosi back this week - and if they play him deep - then our structure will be better and this will help improve our tackles inside the F50, and lock the ball down there more often.

[SainterK]

Well said Legendary.

Ross said as much recently, something along the lines of "I told you he was important to the structure'

[Teflon]

To get your forward tackles up, the ball has to enter our forward 50 for starters. If so, and turnovers are high, that's when the tackles should be up.
If entering our forward 50 on a regular basis and we control the ball in our 50 and score more often than not, our forward tackles will be low.

So far in 2011, entries are up significantly.

Rd 1 52 times: 11 inside 50 tackles, 14 scoring shots
Rd 2 51 times: 19 inside 50 tackles, 30 scoring shots
Rd 3 48 times: 3 inside 50 tackles, 22 scorings shots

So Steven, McEvoy and Milne...the only guys who tackled inside 50 against Essendon.

Collingwoods entries sit at 69,Essendon 62.

Collingwoods fwd 50 pressure leaves us for dead.

[Ice Wolf]

For someone who is known for running defenders off their feet and trying to get to every contest Roo is shocking when it comes to tackling and second efforts.

If he doesn't mark a ball its almost certainly gone. I can't remember the last time i saw him run anyone down.

His defensive effort leaves a lot to be desired, particularly when he constantly demands the ball.

Kosi is a hell of a lot better with the defensive side of his game, only really let down his lack of speed and a turning circle that would make the Bizmark look agile.

Our small forwards have been attrocious with their positioning the last couple of years, how hard is it to have one in front of Roo and one goalside?

[SainterK]

For someone who is known for running defenders off their feet and trying to get to every contest Roo is shocking when it comes to tackling and second efforts.

If he doesn't mark a ball its almost certainly gone. I can't remember the last time i saw him run anyone down.

His defensive effort leaves a lot to be desired, particularly when he constantly demands the ball.

Kosi is a hell of a lot better with the defensive side of his game, only really let down his lack of speed and a turning circle that would make the Bizmark look agile.

Our small forwards have been attrocious with their positioning the last couple of years, how hard is it to have one in front of Roo and one goalside?

I think Roo is usually not too bad, I think he is trying to be Roo and Kosi at the same time.

Trouble is, he is not a good bang and crash forward, he doesn't have the body type and loses his feet when he has multiple opponents. He is also around the 50 metre arc, so the spillages are happening much too far away from goal. I noticed against Richmond, they were prepared for this, and had Richmond pacey players sitting around ready to take his crumbs and run them out of there.

Kosi has the body type to play that role, and as Legendary pointed out, if he pushes deep...the spillages happen much closer to goal, or alternatively Kosi can mark them and have a shot deep.

Actually one positive I found from the Essendon game, is where Jack Steven positioned himself. He instinctively seemed to be where the spillage was occuring, I think he will be a really good prospect rotating between the midfield and forward.

[Teflon]

For someone who is known for running defenders off their feet and trying to get to every contest Roo is shocking when it comes to tackling and second efforts.

If he doesn't mark a ball its almost certainly gone. I can't remember the last time i saw him run anyone down.

His defensive effort leaves a lot to be desired, particularly when he constantly demands the ball.

Kosi is a hell of a lot better with the defensive side of his game, only really let down his lack of speed and a turning circle that would make the Bizmark look agile.

Our small forwards have been attrocious with their positioning the last couple of years, how hard is it to have one in front of Roo and one goalside?

In fairness to Riewoldt, after he's led 8 times and taken on 3 opponents constantly he's probably stuffed...
Reality is at Collingwood, Cloke aint great at defensive stuff either...but he's gettin loads of support from midfeild.....where's our fwd 50 pressure?

IF we are relying on Riewoldt/Kosi we are stuffed.

[Dr Spaceman]

For someone who is known for running defenders off their feet and trying to get to every contest Roo is shocking when it comes to tackling and second efforts.

If he doesn't mark a ball its almost certainly gone. I can't remember the last time i saw him run anyone down.

His defensive effort leaves a lot to be desired, particularly when he constantly demands the ball.

Kosi is a hell of a lot better with the defensive side of his game, only really let down his lack of speed and a turning circle that would make the Bizmark look agile.

Our small forwards have been attrocious with their positioning the last couple of years, how hard is it to have one in front of Roo and one goalside?

Roo's overall efforts and workrate are such that I'm sure his coach, his team mates and his supporters won't hold it against him if he doesn't lead the way in tackles.

[BigMart]

Milne....if he ever does tackle, generally is high, not sure why, he stands 5'9"????

Tackling is an attitude.....

You need a hunger for laying them....and see them as significant as a kick or mark.....

Lenny, bolton, luke ball, kirk, jones, mcqualter.......have a defensive attitude.....others dont

Nick works a lot harder to get the ball, than he does to get it back