Do we rebuild now?

[plugger66]

If as said by many and we get rid of the likes of Blake, gamble, Dempster, baker, Peake and even Gram then that means we are rebuilding again. I know people say these guys dont do much anyway but anyway you look at it these guys did help us get to the last 2 GF's

If we go down the path of dropping them then the guys coming in will not in the long term this year get us to the first day in October. It just will not happen.

And the reason being that we will have to slightly change how we play which isnt easy after 3 months practice of playing a certain way. Also the young guys coming in will be very inconsistent and will probably never all fire together meaning there will be games where we have a lot of passengers. People will say that also happens now but the older guys still play their role even on poor days otherwise we wouldnt have made the last 2 GF's.

I still say we make very minimal changes at least for the Essendon game and then probably the BL but if things go pear shaped after those games then we can look at further changes.

A rebuild now means probably 5 to 7 years in the bottom half of the ladder because the young guys will take 3-4 years to be consistant and by then we have lost many of our great players so it is a huge decision. Shouldnt be taken as lightly as people think when saying lets just get rid of these 6 to 7 players.

[eppo67]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bite the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

So I agree with your point Plugger not a total rebuild but I think we need a 'mini refresh' (could be a new Rossism')

[plugger66]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bit the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

Yes he left out guys but their seconds players may have been going better than ours. Lets be totally honest here. I will go through the players you want in and their form.

Cripps have done at best fairly. He is fast and kicks ok but isnt the best kick I have seen. probably avering 10-15 disposals a game in a poorer standard of footy. IMO if he comes in he will be an outside 10 possession game player.

Ledger is injured and at best could play seniors in about 6 weeks so we will know where we are at by then.

Steven has been injured and probably 3 weeks away. Again we will know where we are at by then. Will play the moment he is fit enough.

Winmar will play next week if he does well today but again isnt going to make a huge difference. Hardly got a kick in the 2 short games he played pre season but has been very impressive in Sandy practice matches.

Stanley is out of form or he would have played already. As soon as he gets a kick for Sandy then he may play however he will not make any difference at all as I am unsure what place he could actually play especially if Kosi is back in the side.

So from all that I see no improvement at all and to be honest probably even worse form but like I said if we go down that road that is what will happen in the immediate short term.

[OneEyedSainter77]

Excellent post Plugger.,

I think revisit the idea after round eight - we have the potential to still be winless by then. Look at our draw.

Essendon - round 3 - bogey team. Just about mark an L there.

Brisbane - round 5. Possible win but it is at our bogey ground in the Gabba. Even Freo struggled to beat Brisbane there. Possible L here.

Adelaide - round 6 - Up and coming yothful and exuberant team which touched us up on their home turf last year as well.

Carlton - round 7 - another up and coming youthful side that can show us up.

Of course, there's every chance we could turn it around and be 4-1-1 by then and on top of the ladder. That's the beuaty of AFL - you just never know.

[borderbarry]

It is vital that our youngsters put on a good effort today if they are going to take advan tage of the poor form of a lot of our senior players. I will be watching the ABC with baited breath.

[plugger66]

It is vital that our youngsters put on a good effort today if they are going to take advan tage of the poor form of a lot of our senior players. I will be watching the ABC with baited breath.

That is a great point. I think people who want all these changes should sit down and watch today because if these guys cant get a kick in the VFL then how the hell will they in the AFL.

It is a huge chance today for probably Winmar and Cripps. lets just hope they are good today and even if they arent in the best at least show they look like AFL footballers.

[PJ]

Is Walsh playing?

If Blake and Baker are under the pump this maybe an option.

Midfield is also what we need .

I don't think however we have any in and under types pushing up.

[fingers]

I don't think it's a total rebuild. I think we enjoy this year. Let the players play with some freedom and blood 4 or 5 young kids. Let the boys refresh mentally and enjoy their footy for a massive assault with a newish team in 2012 and 2013.

[stinger]

we should follow the filth's lead....play 6 or 7 of the kids...but only by rotating them 2 or 3 at a time...build their game tallies up gradually

[bergholt]

It is a huge chance today for probably Winmar and Cripps. lets just hope they are good today and even if they arent in the best at least show they look like AFL footballers.

i didn't see the game, but the reports i've read certainly don't suggest either of them really pushed for selection.

[St. Luke]

Yeah let's rebuild, two Grand Final appearances in consecutive years, and missed both chances by a kick. Forget the stupid 2nd GF, we were cooked. Total bunch of hacks. Let's give up

Teams shouldnt need rebuilds, they should be constantly maintained.

[bobmurray]

Yeah let's rebuild, two Grand Final appearances in consecutive years, and missed both chances by a kick. Forget the stupid 2nd GF, we were cooked. Total bunch of hacks. Let's give up

Teams shouldnt need rebuilds, they should be constantly maintained.

don't worry about a rebuild yet....

lets watch the decline first......

[wasaintsfan]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bit the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

Yes he left out guys but their seconds players may have been going better than ours. Lets be totally honest here. I will go through the players you want in and their form.

Cripps have done at best fairly. He is fast and kicks ok but isnt the best kick I have seen. probably avering 10-15 disposals a game in a poorer standard of footy. IMO if he comes in he will be an outside 10 possession game player.

Ledger is injured and at best could play seniors in about 6 weeks so we will know where we are at by then.

Steven has been injured and probably 3 weeks away. Again we will know where we are at by then. Will play the moment he is fit enough.

Winmar will play next week if he does well today but again isnt going to make a huge difference. Hardly got a kick in the 2 short games he played pre season but has been very impressive in Sandy practice matches.

Stanley is out of form or he would have played already. As soon as he gets a kick for Sandy then he may play however he will not make any difference at all as I am unsure what place he could actually play especially if Kosi is back in the side.

So from all that I see no improvement at all and to be honest probably even worse form but like I said if we go down that road that is what will happen in the immediate short term.

wow plugger just wow... thats the best post ive seen you make and its 100% correct

[St. Luke]

Yeah let's rebuild, two Grand Final appearances in consecutive years, and missed both chances by a kick. Forget the stupid 2nd GF, we were cooked. Total bunch of hacks. Let's give up

Teams shouldnt need rebuilds, they should be constantly maintained.

don't worry about a rebuild yet....

lets watch the decline first......

Yep totally right, we're two months past our use-by date. Better toss em all out

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bite the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

So I agree with your point Plugger not a total rebuild but I think we need a 'mini refresh' (could be a new Rossism')

+ 1. It's not quite time to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.
We need to win at least one of the next 3, though, and be improving noticeably over those weeks, to still be a chance this year.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bit the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

Yes he left out guys but their seconds players may have been going better than ours. Lets be totally honest here. I will go through the players you want in and their form.

Cripps have done at best fairly. He is fast and kicks ok but isnt the best kick I have seen. probably avering 10-15 disposals a game in a poorer standard of footy. IMO if he comes in he will be an outside 10 possession game player.

Ledger is injured and at best could play seniors in about 6 weeks so we will know where we are at by then.

Steven has been injured and probably 3 weeks away. Again we will know where we are at by then. Will play the moment he is fit enough.

Winmar will play next week if he does well today but again isnt going to make a huge difference. Hardly got a kick in the 2 short games he played pre season but has been very impressive in Sandy practice matches.

Stanley is out of form or he would have played already. As soon as he gets a kick for Sandy then he may play however he will not make any difference at all as I am unsure what place he could actually play especially if Kosi is back in the side.

So from all that I see no improvement at all and to be honest probably even worse form but like I said if we go down that road that is what will happen in the immediate short term.

wow plugger just wow... thats the best post ive seen you make and its 100% correct

One thing that hasn't been taken into account, though, is the "intangibles" that making a few changes would bring.
Dropping X, who averages 15 possies and bringing in Y, who might only get 10 is one thing, but the energy and enthusiasm that Y might bring to the group as a whole could be worth more than 5 possies. I think we saw that from Geelong last week, who seemed to have far more enthusiasm and energy than us. It probably got them the points in the end. The energy from their "kids" was infectious and they seemed to want it much more than us, especially at the end, as a result.
Those left in the side also seeing that a few of their mates have been given the ass will also probably snap them out of the funk they're in right now, as they'll know that they could be next, if they don't bring their A game.
One of the best examples of this was when Dal and Milne were left out a couple of years ago. The effect this had on the team was telling, as everyone realised they could be next, if they didn't perform and we started playing much better from that point on, from memory. It was probably the catalyst of the top-of-the-ladder run we've been on since that happened.
That could be just what we need right now, especially for those who have "lost the hunger", or who may be a bit too comfortable.

[bigcarl]

If as said by many and we get rid of the likes of Blake, gamble, Dempster, baker, Peake and even Gram then that means we are rebuilding again. I know people say these guys dont do much anyway but anyway you look at it these guys did help us get to the last 2 GF's

If we go down the path of dropping them then the guys coming in will not in the long term this year get us to the first day in October. It just will not happen.

And the reason being that we will have to slightly change how we play which isnt easy after 3 months practice of playing a certain way. Also the young guys coming in will be very inconsistent and will probably never all fire together meaning there will be games where we have a lot of passengers. People will say that also happens now but the older guys still play their role even on poor days otherwise we wouldnt have made the last 2 GF's.

I still say we make very minimal changes at least for the Essendon game and then probably the BL but if things go pear shaped after those games then we can look at further changes.

A rebuild now means probably 5 to 7 years in the bottom half of the ladder because the young guys will take 3-4 years to be consistant and by then we have lost many of our great players so it is a huge decision. Shouldnt be taken as lightly as people think when saying lets just get rid of these 6 to 7 players.

I don't think wholesale changes, but it is certainly time for some new blood at the expense of certain fringe players. IMO Steven should play next week for a start (if fit).

[wasaintsfan]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bit the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

Yes he left out guys but their seconds players may have been going better than ours. Lets be totally honest here. I will go through the players you want in and their form.

Cripps have done at best fairly. He is fast and kicks ok but isnt the best kick I have seen. probably avering 10-15 disposals a game in a poorer standard of footy. IMO if he comes in he will be an outside 10 possession game player.

Ledger is injured and at best could play seniors in about 6 weeks so we will know where we are at by then.

Steven has been injured and probably 3 weeks away. Again we will know where we are at by then. Will play the moment he is fit enough.

Winmar will play next week if he does well today but again isnt going to make a huge difference. Hardly got a kick in the 2 short games he played pre season but has been very impressive in Sandy practice matches.

Stanley is out of form or he would have played already. As soon as he gets a kick for Sandy then he may play however he will not make any difference at all as I am unsure what place he could actually play especially if Kosi is back in the side.

So from all that I see no improvement at all and to be honest probably even worse form but like I said if we go down that road that is what will happen in the immediate short term.

wow plugger just wow... thats the best post ive seen you make and its 100% correct

One thing that hasn't been taken into account, though, is the "intangibles" that making a few changes would bring.
Dropping X, who averages 15 possies and bringing in Y, who might only get 10 is one thing, but the energy and enthusiasm that Y might bring to the group as a whole could be worth more than 5 possies. I think we saw that from Geelong last week, who seemed to have far more enthusiasm and energy than us. It probably got them the points in the end. The energy from their "kids" was infectious and they seemed to want it much more than us, especially at the end, as a result.
Those left in the side also seeing that a few of their mates have been given the ass will also probably snap them out of the funk they're in right now, as they'll know that they could be next, if they don't bring their A game.
One of the best examples of this was when Dal and Milne were left out a couple of years ago. The effect this had on the team was telling, as everyone realised they could be next, if they didn't perform and we started playing much better from that point on, from memory. It was probably the catalyst of the top-of-the-ladder run we've been on since that happened.
That could be just what we need right now, especially for those who have "lost the hunger", or who may be a bit too comfortable.

dumping the likes of peake jones dempster etc isnt going to have that result... for it to work you'd have to drop say.... riewoldt?? dalsanto?
gilbert??


im all for new blood in the team if theyre doing something... otherwise may aswell ask bob down at the local pub to play

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Really, dropping those ones you mentioned and bringing in some who haven't played before isn't going to bring new energy and enthusiasm and spark into the team, like it appeared to do for Geelong last week and Collingwood last year?

[PJ]

Does anyone think if Schneider and Kosi were available we would have lost the first 2 games? I don't, the current panic is over the top.

[saintsRrising]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bit the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

Yes he left out guys but their seconds players may have been going better than ours. Lets be totally honest here. I will go through the players you want in and their form.

Cripps have done at best fairly. He is fast and kicks ok but isnt the best kick I have seen. probably avering 10-15 disposals a game in a poorer standard of footy. IMO if he comes in he will be an outside 10 possession game player.

Ledger is injured and at best could play seniors in about 6 weeks so we will know where we are at by then.

Steven has been injured and probably 3 weeks away. Again we will know where we are at by then. Will play the moment he is fit enough.

Winmar will play next week if he does well today but again isnt going to make a huge difference. Hardly got a kick in the 2 short games he played pre season but has been very impressive in Sandy practice matches.

Stanley is out of form or he would have played already. As soon as he gets a kick for Sandy then he may play however he will not make any difference at all as I am unsure what place he could actually play especially if Kosi is back in the side.

So from all that I see no improvement at all and to be honest probably even worse form but like I said if we go down that road that is what will happen in the immediate short term.

wow plugger just wow... thats the best post ive seen you make and its 100% correct

Yes not a bad post , and agree with it's thrust BUT;

* Steven looks fit enough to play now.

* Lynch, Johnson and Smith all look likely prospects now.


Great pity that Ledger did his hammy as of the latest batch of kids he looks like 1/ the most ready and 2/ the type of player we need in being a quick aggressive hard-nut.

[saintsRrising]

Does anyone think if Schneider and Kosi were available we would have lost the first 2 games? I don't, the current panic is over the top.

Good point.

But against the Cats to balance that they had no Chapman and Selwood.

[eppo67]

Not a total rebuild ATM but 2 to 4 new faces can do wonders to refresh a team. So if Cripps, Ledger, Winmar, Steven & Stanley etc can come on a bit you could see a real different looking team in 6 weeks from now. But Ross needs to bit the bullet and commit to playing these players now and we need to move on from Peake, Mini, Dempster.

That's what Collingwood did after we beat them in round 3 2010 and lets face it the players Malthouse left out, Lockyer, O'Bree & Medhurst etc. would still be getting a game at St.Kida now under RL or at least they definately would have last year.

Yes he left out guys but their seconds players may have been going better than ours. Lets be totally honest here. I will go through the players you want in and their form.

Cripps have done at best fairly. He is fast and kicks ok but isnt the best kick I have seen. probably avering 10-15 disposals a game in a poorer standard of footy. IMO if he comes in he will be an outside 10 possession game player.

Ledger is injured and at best could play seniors in about 6 weeks so we will know where we are at by then.

Steven has been injured and probably 3 weeks away. Again we will know where we are at by then. Will play the moment he is fit enough.

Winmar will play next week if he does well today but again isnt going to make a huge difference. Hardly got a kick in the 2 short games he played pre season but has been very impressive in Sandy practice matches.

Stanley is out of form or he would have played already. As soon as he gets a kick for Sandy then he may play however he will not make any difference at all as I am unsure what place he could actually play especially if Kosi is back in the side.

So from all that I see no improvement at all and to be honest probably even worse form but like I said if we go down that road that is what will happen in the immediate short term.

wow plugger just wow... thats the best post ive seen you make and its 100% correct

One thing that hasn't been taken into account, though, is the "intangibles" that making a few changes would bring.
Dropping X, who averages 15 possies and bringing in Y, who might only get 10 is one thing, but the energy and enthusiasm that Y might bring to the group as a whole could be worth more than 5 possies. I think we saw that from Geelong last week, who seemed to have far more enthusiasm and energy than us. It probably got them the points in the end. The energy from their "kids" was infectious and they seemed to want it much more than us, especially at the end, as a result.
Those left in the side also seeing that a few of their mates have been given the ass will also probably snap them out of the funk they're in right now, as they'll know that they could be next, if they don't bring their A game.
One of the best examples of this was when Dal and Milne were left out a couple of years ago. The effect this had on the team was telling, as everyone realised they could be next, if they didn't perform and we started playing much better from that point on, from memory. It was probably the catalyst of the top-of-the-ladder run we've been on since that happened.
That could be just what we need right now, especially for those who have "lost the hunger", or who may be a bit too comfortable.

Yes that is what I was really getting at a 'mini refresh, in that a few new young ones come in with a new attitude and no hangover from the last 2 G/F defeats. You make a very good point about the Dal & Milne dropping from a few years ago and it was a big call by Ross and both really responded well.
I think its time for some more big calls from Ross.

[saint58]

If as said by many and we get rid of the likes of Blake, gamble, Dempster, baker, Peake and even Gram then that means we are rebuilding again. I know people say these guys dont do much anyway but anyway you look at it these guys did help us get to the last 2 GF's

If we go down the path of dropping them then the guys coming in will not in the long term this year get us to the first day in October. It just will not happen.

And the reason being that we will have to slightly change how we play which isnt easy after 3 months practice of playing a certain way. Also the young guys coming in will be very inconsistent and will probably never all fire together meaning there will be games where we have a lot of passengers. People will say that also happens now but the older guys still play their role even on poor days otherwise we wouldnt have made the last 2 GF's.

I still say we make very minimal changes at least for the Essendon game and then probably the BL but if things go pear shaped after those games then we can look at further changes.

A rebuild now means probably 5 to 7 years in the bottom half of the ladder because the young guys will take 3-4 years to be consistant and by then we have lost many of our great players so it is a huge decision. Shouldnt be taken as lightly as people think when saying lets just get rid of these 6 to 7 players.

Yes you are right.But shouldnt we have been putting these guys in when they have been playing well for sandy,as a lot did last year.Like smith,steven,stanley,walsh,lynch,just to name a few.

We talked about what collingwood did in bringing in a few guys over the last couple of years and said we will do it well iam still waiting.

The only guys we play are eddy,kossi,geary(now injured) mini and dempster we will struggle with these guys in the team but its now time to bit the bullet.

But it wont happen gripps,ledger,polo should play but iam very not very optimistic.

[bigred]

Does anyone think if Schneider and Kosi were available we would have lost the first 2 games? I don't, the current panic is over the top.

Good point.

But against the Cats to balance that they had no Chapman and Selwood.

Granted.

But the last two weeks have seriously exposed a few blokes that are not up to our standard atm.

Both in terms of disposal and physicality.

We have definite issues atm. We don't need a rebuild yet, I think we still have the cattle. It just needs to be reworked a little.