Federal Court - 1030am Tomorrow

[Dr Spaceman]

[Posters have previously alluded to this "scandal" ripping the club apart, but IMO that's not going to happen. I just hope it doesn't rip this forum apart

No chance - we survived the GT sacking so this is but a blip in comparison!

And whilst I too recognize that this 17 year old is seemingly out of control and in desperate need of assistance, she'll never get it unless she recognizes she needs it and accepts the assistance when it is offered to her.

I've also got real concerns the way some are categorizing the Club in this whole saga - what exactly are they supposed to do?

Just ignore the girl and 'hope' that she will eventually go away?
That tactic doesn't appear to have been a 'success' so far.
On the face of it , it would appear that the AFL have 'ticked off' on the Club's handling of the issue (if they had objections the Club would surely have heard and would have acquiesced as is their normal form)

So what exactly should the Club have done/been doing that would have resolved all of this?
I read/hear/see plenty of criticisms but I don't see much advice from those who criticize.

Exactly.

You've got parents, you've got family and friends, you've got teachers, you've got welfare experts, you've got police, you've got judges, you've got..........

Nah, forget all of them. Let's expect a club that's set up to run a football team to clean up the mess

One of the most telling parts of the article in The Age was this:

"This year, she says, she went "off the rails" and has been arrested several times for shoplifting, drug use, assault and trespass. She escaped each charge without conviction, she says, and felt invincible."

Without getting political, there is no doubt this is one of the things that saw Brumby get the boot.

There has got to be some return to personal responsibility and punishment for doing the wrong thing. Otherwise Kim will simply be the tip of the iceberg. In a perfect world young girls would look at this story and see it as some type of warning.

Unfortunately in today's times, some will simply see it as a guidebook to fame

[markp]

Good article...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... 197k5.html


There are a lot of adults calling her all sorts of things on this site and out there... personally I find that even more disturbing than her behaviour. She's obviously not a well kid, what's everyone else's excuse?

The law will rightly deal with her... and thankfully not those who'd prefer to burn her at the stake.

Except that some of her statements as published in that story (to do with how she went to the game in Sydney and subsequent events later that night) are at odds with her previous statements and what the police investigation uncovered.

IIRC it was confirmed by police that she travelled with her 27 year old 'housemate' to Sydney and met the players at the aftergame function in a 18+ venue where she exchange telephone numbers with Gilbert and Armo?.
(There is photographic evidence taken by an official photographer of her and the 27 yo dressed in Saints jumpers and black pants at the game.)

She had no assignation with either of them until weeks later.
She apparently told them she wqas 19 and attending the AIS.

So once again her story changes like the weather in Melbourne.

I agree this girl needs serious help, as apparently has been offered many times.
But she has to accept it before it can be given.
ATM she seems much more interested in the 'media celebrity' she's getting than accepting that she needs help.
And all the while this 'poor young misguided 17 year old girl' continues to take actions that have repurcussions for others.

I dont disagree with any of your points, I think this paragraph from the article covers the veracity of her version(s) of events....

Justice Shane Marshall orders that her name be suppressed: "If the court can't protect the children what can it do?" In person, she has a child's charms and faults. She is contrary, naive, vain, full of bluster but vulnerable, a lone teen on the wrong side of the biggest game in town. It's hard to know if she's telling the truth.

She's obviously bullshyting about a lot.

But she is also obviously a kid, unwell, and I'd suggest hasn't been raised too well.

I'd also suggest there may be a chance that Gilbert and co. realised she was very young and very nuts from the start, but hooked up with her anyway, and dumped her cold when they were done. I've seen guys play that 'game' a thousand times, and it should just about be illegal.

By all means stop her doing any more damage, throw the book at her, get her some help, all that... but personally, I find the savagery with which she's been set upon and labelled by many to be fairly disturbing and unedifying.

[Mr Magic]

[But she is also obviously a kid, unwell, and I'd suggest hasn't been raised too well.

But Mark, that too is an assumption that a girl, who has obviously 'gone off the rails' must not have been raised too well.

Who of us knows the real story.
Maybe just maybe the parents recognized that there were issues and tried to do something/everything they could about it - but it just didn't work?

We look at this girl and judge her on our own morality and ethical values.
To many of us who are parents of teenage kids it is incomprehensible that any of our children could act in this manner.
Therefore it is somebody's fault.
It cannot be the girl because we know she is just a 16/17 year old, and we know how they are supposed to act.
It has to be the parents, players, Club, Police, AFL, Society or anybody else - but not the girl heself.
She's just a victim of society, her upbringing, predatory young males etc.

Maybe, just maybe it's her own fault?

Maybe just maybe she knows exactly what she's doing and enjoys it (the notoriety for sure)?

Someone on here alluded to the 'Paris Hilton' style of celeb behaviour.
I actually think that is a great analogy.
You just need to read her twitter page to see that she's lapping up the celeb status and the adulation from others who are egging her on.

It's almost like she's 'stoned' on the publicity.
She obviosuly isn't worrying about next year, or next decade.
She appears to be living life 'all for moment'.

[markp]

[But she is also obviously a kid, unwell, and I'd suggest hasn't been raised too well.

But Mark, that too is an assumption that a girl, who has obviously 'gone off the rails' must not have been raised too well.

Who of us knows the real story.
Maybe just maybe the parents recognized that there were issues and tried to do something/everything they could about it - but it just didn't work?

We look at this girl and judge her on our own morality and ethical values.
To many of us who are parents of teenage kids it is incomprehensible that any of our children could act in this manner.
Therefore it is somebody's fault.
It cannot be the girl because we know she is just a 16/17 year old, and we know how they are supposed to act.
It has to be the parents, players, Club, Police, AFL, Society or anybody else - but not the girl heself.
She's just a victim of society, her upbringing, predatory young males etc.

Maybe, just maybe it's her own fault?

Maybe just maybe she knows exactly what she's doing and enjoys it (the notoriety for sure)?

Someone on here alluded to the 'Paris Hilton' style of celeb behaviour.
I actually think that is a great analogy.
You just need to read her twitter page to see that she's lapping up the celeb status and the adulation from others who are egging her on.

It's almost like she's 'stoned' on the publicity.
She obviosuly isn't worrying about next year, or next decade.
She appears to be living life 'all for moment'.

Again, I don't disagree with your point about her upbringing... who knows?

But to me, the evidence (her irrational/bizarre behaviour) indicates someone who is not totally in control, or well, and certainly not aware of the consequences of her choices... it doesn't have to be anyone's fault.

So I don't think she can necessarily be judged as though she were an adult fully in possession of all her faculties.

I'm not suggesting she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, as she surely will... for the most part, I'm only suggesting that it's really not cool to label a kid like this as a 'dirty sl*t', 'whore', 'bike', 'piece of gutter trash', etc.

[Mr Magic]

[But she is also obviously a kid, unwell, and I'd suggest hasn't been raised too well.

But Mark, that too is an assumption that a girl, who has obviously 'gone off the rails' must not have been raised too well.

Who of us knows the real story.
Maybe just maybe the parents recognized that there were issues and tried to do something/everything they could about it - but it just didn't work?

We look at this girl and judge her on our own morality and ethical values.
To many of us who are parents of teenage kids it is incomprehensible that any of our children could act in this manner.
Therefore it is somebody's fault.
It cannot be the girl because we know she is just a 16/17 year old, and we know how they are supposed to act.
It has to be the parents, players, Club, Police, AFL, Society or anybody else - but not the girl heself.
She's just a victim of society, her upbringing, predatory young males etc.

Maybe, just maybe it's her own fault?

Maybe just maybe she knows exactly what she's doing and enjoys it (the notoriety for sure)?

Someone on here alluded to the 'Paris Hilton' style of celeb behaviour.
I actually think that is a great analogy.
You just need to read her twitter page to see that she's lapping up the celeb status and the adulation from others who are egging her on.

It's almost like she's 'stoned' on the publicity.
She obviosuly isn't worrying about next year, or next decade.
She appears to be living life 'all for moment'.

Again, I don't disagree with your point about her upbringing... who knows?

But to me, the evidence (her irrational/bizarre behaviour) indicates someone who is not totally in control, or well, and certainly not aware of the consequences of her choices... it doesn't have to be anyone's fault.

So I don't think she can necessarily be judged as though she were an adult fully in possession of all her faculties.

I'm not suggesting she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, as she surely will... for the most part, I'm only suggesting that it's really not cool to label a kid like this as a 'dirty sl*t', 'whore', 'bike', 'piece of gutter trash', etc.

Agreed, but then again those labelling her are only doing so based on their own values, morals and ethics.

[stinger]

It would appear that the court case is legit.

Taken from the court listings for tomorrow - http://courtlists.fedcourt.gov.au/court ... .aspx?id=7





Justice Marshall COURT 6A (Level 6)

10:30 AM Directions

VID1107/2010

I thought the court ordered her name to be suppressed, then the court goes and publishes names on their docket.
I assume she is the ANOR (others) and K D her parent.

the court should be thoroughly unless that listing was before the suppression order....but you certainly aren't allowed to publish her name now...her parents aren't part of the action...nor could they be....they are not legally responsible for her actions no matter what all the arm chair lawyers on here say ffs...

[rodgerfox]

I'm not suggesting she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, as she surely will... for the most part, I'm only suggesting that it's really not cool to label a kid like this as a 'dirty sl*t', 'whore', 'bike', 'piece of gutter trash', etc.

Agree.

It's in very poor taste.

Mental illness is a horrible thing, and not a great look to have the club's vice president publicly slagging off a child who quite obvious has an illness.

[joffaboy]

I'm not suggesting she shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, as she surely will... for the most part, I'm only suggesting that it's really not cool to label a kid like this as a 'dirty sl*t', 'whore', 'bike', 'piece of gutter trash', etc.

Agree.

It's in very poor taste.

Mental illness is a horrible thing, and not a great look to have the club's vice president publicly slagging off a child who quite obvious has an illness.

Are you a doctor?

has this woman been diagnosed as having a mental illness?

Crass base assumptions at the moment.

Acting in a vindictive, irresponsible, and grossly inappropriate manner doesn't necessarily mean a mental illness.

Unless she has been doagnosed as mentally ill, please stop stating it as fact.

[rodgerfox]

Unless she has been doagnosed as mentally ill, please stop stating it as fact.

There are many, many people wandering around with mental illness who haven't been diagnosed.

[Spinner]

People are pushing around mental illness way too loosely. It may be the case but more than likely she's just a 17 year old nutter.

We all know plenty of nutters, just simply crazy individuals - but not with a mental illness.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses, the sooner people accept there are some absolute phychos in this world, with absolutely no reason behind it, the better. Myself included.

[Dr Spaceman]

People are pushing around mental illness way too loosely. It may be the case but more than likely she's just a 17 year old nutter.

We all know plenty of nutters, just simply crazy individuals - but not with a mental illness.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses, the sooner people accept there are some absolute phychos in this world, with absolutely no reason behind it, the better. Myself included.

And the sooner there's some repercussions for the nutters, and not apologists and suspended sentences, even better.

[rodgerfox]

People are pushing around mental illness way too loosely. It may be the case but more than likely she's just a 17 year old nutter.

We all know plenty of nutters, just simply crazy individuals - but not with a mental illness.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses, the sooner people accept there are some absolute phychos in this world, with absolutely no reason behind it, the better. Myself included.

And the sooner there's some repercussions for the nutters, and not apologists and suspended sentences, even better.

Turning a blind eye or giving reduced sentences for people with mental illness is not the answer.

However you do have to treat them, and the situation differently to any normal crime.

The most certain thing is though, that unless the illness is addressed - the symptons (the behaviour and actions of the person) will simply keep happening. In most cases, they'll get much worse too.

So you have people screaming 'stuff them! Mental illness or not - throw them in jail!!' - then the same ignoramuses going beserk when they serve their sentence and re-offend within days of being released.


Even a drug addict that commits crimes to support their habit. Send them to jail for as long as you like, but if they come out a drug addict still then they'll keep doing that they have to do to support their habit.

[Dr Spaceman]

People are pushing around mental illness way too loosely. It may be the case but more than likely she's just a 17 year old nutter.

We all know plenty of nutters, just simply crazy individuals - but not with a mental illness.

It's time for everyone to stop making excuses, the sooner people accept there are some absolute phychos in this world, with absolutely no reason behind it, the better. Myself included.

And the sooner there's some repercussions for the nutters, and not apologists and suspended sentences, even better.

Turning a blind eye or giving reduced sentences for people with mental illness is not the answer.

However you do have to treat them, and the situation differently to any normal crime.

The most certain thing is though, that unless the illness is addressed - the symptons (the behaviour and actions of the person) will simply keep happening. In most cases, they'll get much worse too.

So you have people screaming 'stuff them! Mental illness or not - throw them in jail!!' - then the same ignoramuses going beserk when they serve their sentence and re-offend within days of being released.


Even a drug addict that commits crimes to support their habit. Send them to jail for as long as you like, but if they come out a drug addict still then they'll keep doing that they have to do to support their habit.

Rodger, if you replace the words mental illness with genuine mental illness I'd probably agree with you.

Trouble is that too often the argument is run that the committing of a crime can only be attributed to something "bad" that has happened in the accused’s life.

As Spinner has alluded to, some people are just bad people.

[GoTheTorp]

It would appear that the court case is legit.

Taken from the court listings for tomorrow - http://courtlists.fedcourt.gov.au/court ... .aspx?id=7





Justice Marshall COURT 6A (Level 6)

10:30 AM Directions

VID1107/2010

I thought the court ordered her name to be suppressed, then the court goes and publishes names on their docket.
I assume she is the ANOR (others) and K D her parent.

the court should be thoroughly unless that listing was before the suppression order....but you certainly aren't allowed to publish her name now...her parents aren't part of the action...nor could they be....they are not legally responsible for her actions no matter what all the arm chair lawyers on here say ffs...

Hey Lawyer you should know the whole procedings of a court injunction?being listed as Anor." is an abbreviation meaning "another." It can be thought of as the singular form of the abbreviation "Ors.," which means "others." It is not well documented but it means the injunction is againt more than one and includes all of her aliases used, Hence the need to name her in the offical court list. Oh but you already knew that right?

[rodgerfox]

As Spinner has alluded to, some people are just bad people.

Absolutely.

But I've seen this behaviour before, by this type of person (granted I don't know her from a bar of soap) and it never is the result of just being a 'bad person'. It's always been the result of mental illness.

And unless I'm very wrong, she'll get worse.

[ozrulestrace]

I've just read the article in The Age and there are a couple points of concerns-
First of all that male journalist should have thought twice about offering to share the taxi into the city. By looking for the "scoop" he has placed himself in a position whereby she could make allegations against him at a drop of a hat and be in the same position as the players. Or did he fall for the whole Little Orphan Annie story as well?

By sharing the taxi with her once agains she's managed to get herself with a taxi ride without having to pay the fare, so she'll take anything from anybody whether it be a taxi fare or what ever money she supposedly demanded off Ricky Nixon.

She declares her love for the player who got her into this strife (well that would be her prespective) which sounds really strange after reeking revenge against Sam Gilbert and any other player should could name to extend her revenge.

And then it concludes with her tweeting about a big nite out. Nightclubs etc? So minors are admitted to nightclubs now? As long as you're famous you can get regardless of whether she's underage. Playing the child card when it suits her and other times ingnores it.

Well hello DHS any sign of a protection order so she can be placed in safe custody when in Victoria. If she goes back to Queensland then its their problem.
This gets murkier along the way and you have to fear for her not making her 21st birthday.

[Dr Spaceman]

I've just read the article in The Age and there are a couple points of concerns-
First of all that male journalist should have thought twice about offering to share the taxi into the city. By looking for the "scoop" he has placed himself in a position whereby she could make allegations against him at a drop of a hat and be in the same position as the players. Or did he fall for the whole Little Orphan Annie story as well?

By sharing the taxi with her once agains she's managed to get herself with a taxi ride without having to pay the fare, so she'll take anything from anybody whether it be a taxi fare or what ever money she supposedly demanded off Ricky Nixon.

She declares her love for the player who got her into this strife (well that would be her prespective) which sounds really strange after reeking revenge against Sam Gilbert and any other player should could name to extend her revenge.

And then it concludes with her tweeting about a big nite out. Nightclubs etc? So minors are admitted to nightclubs now? As long as you're famous you can get regardless of whether she's underage. Playing the child card when it suits her and other times ingnores it.

Well hello DHS any sign of a protection order so she can be placed in safe custody when in Victoria. If she goes back to Queensland then its their problem.
This gets murkier along the way and you have to fear for her not making her 21st birthday.

ozrulestrace, as I mentioned earlier, IMO one of the most telling parts of that article was:

"This year, she says, she went "off the rails" and has been arrested several times for shoplifting, drug use, assault and trespass. She escaped each charge without conviction, she says, and felt invincible."

[plugger66]

i hope she is shaking in her boots... and i hope most other young girls are too

many girls aged 13-17 go out to night clubs... try hook up with guys older then them to get what they want.. they lie about ages and everything about them(this isnt targeted at geniune assaults where the girl is ACTUALLY the victim)

and when some one finds out they play the victim card.....

the saints should take her for everything

not only for the players well being

but the well being of every man and teenager that has ever been dragged through hell because of lil tarts lies... dragged through court systems
degraded and abused....

this is the first stepping stone for the book to be thrown at these young permiscious girls who target people to get what they want.... (booze, boyfriend with care, drugs etc etc)

ive had friends facing court over a girl they met in an 18+ nightclub
ive personally been victim when at school girls telling me theyre older then they are only to have their friends later tell me otherwise (thankfully for me)

this girl has asked and asked and asked... now she is getting and cant handle it


come on saints take her for everything as i said not just for you but for every innocent person who has been taken for a ride!!!!

and for every parent who believes their teen daughter is innocent... most girls these days are atleast giving sexual favours by the age of 14... most girls are going to underage parties...

14 yo girl gets raped at a train station at 2 am in the morning... question??? wtf was a 14 yo girl doing at the trainstation at 2am... wheres welfare asking the parents this question?????

im over young teenage girls playing the victim when they are in the wrong to begin with and there are alot of them... simple dont put yourself in adult situations and you wont be exposed to this rubbish (again not aimed at young girls doing the right thing)

who told every one she was 19 and worked for the AIS????
apperently she had a still birth? wheres the death certificate
she took the photos??? how come it was proven to be taken in miami???

Yes it is that straight forward. I have no idea of your age or whether you have kids but even the best pareants can have kids out of control if they mix in the wrong crowd. Maybe we should put her down and be done with it. What ever we do we mustnt help her. Better to take all her money and start threads like AFL bike. Maybe if we are lucky she may just get depressed enough and kill herself. My god some people on here think what ever our club players choose to do that they are never at fault.

Well if Sam firstly didnt take the photos and then secondly got rid of them as requested and then thirdly didnt let this girl somehow access his computer none of this would have happened. Yes the girl did very much the wrong thing and is obviously very f***ed up at the moment but dont you think helping her may win us a PR battle and benefit the girl rather than a rich footballer suing a probably not rich 17 year old.

Or we can say as most seem to say, she deserves what she gets especially as she has wronged a Saints footballer.

Now look yourselves in the mirror and admit if this was to another club 99% of you criticizing her would be yelling out go you good thing which may be fair enough because it isnt our club but maybe if we meet in the middle and attempt to help her it would be good for everyone.

What a load of bleeding heart melodramatic BS p66.

1. Gilbert do a stupid thing & he has lost the trust of teammates, that is an internal issue for him to sort out with those he wronged. BUT how does that make it ok for someone else to commit a crime, from his dumb actions?

2. So this 'poor victim' should be allowed to get away with anything....because she is a 'victim' of poor upbringing? By your logic, it will be ok is she claims she was packed raped by the players...never mind, she's had a tough life, its ok if she destroys others too...I assume if some thug slices up an innocent person and leaves him bleeding to death on the street, we should forgive him....and blame the dying person in the gutter for being better off than the thug (sorry, the true 'victim' of society)?

3. The biggest problem with modern society and the young, is that they no longer have to learn that with freedom comes responsibility AND consequence. Discipline is bad, everything is ok, and don't judge....the new moronic edict for how we should live.

The old hippies have taken over the bureaucracies & education institutions, and the rest of us that work hard, try to be decent, follow the rules & laws have to suffer, because in actual fact we are now the real ‘criminals’, while the thugs that bash us, swindle & cheat, steal or cars, and rob our homes are the true ‘victims’, because society (e.g. thoes that follow the laws) made them like that.

Welcome to Orwellian world of the old hippies and bleeding hearts.

Welcome to the age of who gives a f*** about someone else especially if they wrong a Saints player. Maybe I am from the bleeding hearts but id rather that from the person of who gives a f***. Sorry I care you can just choose to be an arsehole.

[stinger]

It would appear that the court case is legit.

Taken from the court listings for tomorrow - http://courtlists.fedcourt.gov.au/court ... .aspx?id=7





Justice Marshall COURT 6A (Level 6)

10:30 AM Directions

VID1107/2010

I thought the court ordered her name to be suppressed, then the court goes and publishes names on their docket.
I assume she is the ANOR (others) and K D her parent.

the court should be thoroughly unless that listing was before the suppression order....but you certainly aren't allowed to publish her name now...her parents aren't part of the action...nor could they be....they are not legally responsible for her actions no matter what all the arm chair lawyers on here say ffs...

Hey Lawyer you should know the whole procedings of a court injunction?being listed as Anor." is an abbreviation meaning "another." It can be thought of as the singular form of the abbreviation "Ors.," which means "others." It is not well documented but it means the injunction is againt more than one and includes all of her aliases used, Hence the need to name her in the offical court list. Oh but you already knew that right?

the another refers to another party...not others.. ...... ....aliases..!!!!.what f****** aliases.....what a f****** joke...and you don't name her in the official court list once a suppression order is made fffs... ,,,a lawyer you ain't...nor are you someone with half a flowering clue.....

[Richter]

As Spinner has alluded to, some people are just bad people.

Absolutely.

But I've seen this behaviour before, by this type of person (granted I don't know her from a bar of soap) and it never is the result of just being a 'bad person'. It's always been the result of mental illness.

And unless I'm very wrong, she'll get worse.

I've seen it before too, and it has rarely been due to "mental illness". Though that clearly depends on the definition of "mental illness" you choose to use.

In the context I suspect that you are trying to use the phrase "mental illness" I doubt that she is suffering from one.

If the definition of mental illness is "could she benefit from counselling", then the answer is undoubtedly "yes". If this is the test of whether someone has a "mental illness", I'd argue that 90% of the population could be said to be suffering from one. And probably 99% of Saintsational.

[GrumpyOne]

As Spinner has alluded to, some people are just bad people.

Absolutely.

But I've seen this behaviour before, by this type of person (granted I don't know her from a bar of soap) and it never is the result of just being a 'bad person'. It's always been the result of mental illness.

And unless I'm very wrong, she'll get worse.

I've seen it before too, and it has rarely been due to "mental illness". Though that clearly depends on the definition of "mental illness" you choose to use.

In the context I suspect that you are trying to use the phrase "mental illness" I doubt that she is suffering from one.

If the definition of mental illness is "could she benefit from counselling", then the answer is undoubtedly "yes". If this is the test of whether someone has a "mental illness", I'd argue that 90% of the population could be said to be suffering from one. And probably 99% of Saintsational.

From my knowledge of things mental, she is suffering from a psychological disorder. She is not mentally unwell as in requiring psychiatric treatment.

Unfortunately the Saints are suffering the brunt of her disorder.

It's our own KimiGate.