Ross Lyon is a flawed genius

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stinger
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Post: # 1023353Post stinger »

meher baba wrote:The only young Saint who has undoubtedly made it since Lyon started coaching is Sam Gilbert, and he had already been at the club one season and had been given a taste of AFL football.

I would have said that McEvoy had made it too, but we must remember that he (unlike Robert Eddy!!) wasn't considered good enough to play in a GF until Gardi was injured.

CJ has come off the rookie list to become an established player, but he is actually older than some of our long-established senior players (Dal, Gram, BJ, even Schneider).

Gwilt and McQualter don't count IMO: both were already fringe senior players when Lyon arrived at the club. However, Lyon has certainly done an excellent job at bringing these guys along (leaving aside McQualter's piss poor 2010), as well as CJ and (when he's fit) Raph.

You might say that it's a case of younger players not being needed when a side is doing well. However, the management of younger and fringe players was different in the 2004-06 period. I can recall players like Raph, Sam Fisher, Montagna, BJ, Barry Brooks, Sam Gilbert, Gwilt and others getting picked for big, meaningful games (including finals) when they had failed to prove themselves any more convincingly than Armo, Steven, Stanley and co. in recent years.

Of course we had a lot of injuries in the 2004-06 era, so we were arguably forced to play more youngsters. Nevertheless, nobody could surely deny that Lyon has shown a bit of a reluctance to "blood" the youngsters.

This obviously hasn't been a problem up to now (we made and almost won two GFs in two years FFS). But I think the time has more or less come when we need one or two of the younger blokes to fire. I reckon the trick is to pick a couple of the most likely and give them a sustained run in the top 22.

If it were up to me, I'd start by focusing on Armo and Stanley, with Steven and Walsh next in the queue. These are the four I've seen who look to have something special. I reckon Geary ought to be in our top 22 anyway: he's always been better value than the likes of Eddy (and possibly McQualter and even CJ as well).
kossi had big wraps for nick heyne at the start of the year,,,,said he was going to be the next big thing at the saints......i'm still waiting kossi......and hoping...


just one kid who could win a rising star nomination this year would be great too.....


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

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Post: # 1023415Post BAM! (shhhh) »

meher baba wrote:
...

Of course we had a lot of injuries in the 2004-06 era, so we were arguably forced to play more youngsters. Nevertheless, nobody could surely deny that Lyon has shown a bit of a reluctance to "blood" the youngsters.

...
Apologies for cherrypicking MB, I wanted the lead in more than to disagree with you...

I might argue that Lyon just doesn't see the act of "blooding" a player as specifically important. I get the impression that with Lyon, the now (in?)famous "4-year apprenticeship" is less about the 4 years, and more about making the process an unspectacular grind from the highlight reels of the kids.

I suspect that regardless of who drafted them, Lyon would look at both Gwilt and McQualter as successes of the current regime. He'd likely also put for Geary and McEvoy, regardless of their late omissions. He'd include Jones regardless of age, and I suspect he'd include Schneider and Farren Ray even though they started their careers elsewhere.

If the criticism is that Lyon hasn't drafted anyone who's gone on the a 3-vote performance, then it's true. However, I very strongly get the impression that Ross Lyon wouldn't rate that as a problem.

Some rate rising star nominations as important. Some want 2 players to be worked into the list every year, and many look at the draft as a direct opportunity to improve next years team. I suspect Ross Lyon doesn't subscribe to any of these 3 views.

I'm not sure. I do think he's earned enough rope to walk himself to the inevitable cliff of the eventual retirements of the 2001 draft class.


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Post: # 1024794Post rodgerfox »

meher baba wrote:
stinger wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :wink:

you might just be onto something there....
I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....
Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.


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Post: # 1024796Post SainterK »

Welcome back Kotter :wink:


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Post: # 1024798Post Dr Spaceman »

rodgerfox wrote:
meher baba wrote:
stinger wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :wink:

you might just be onto something there....
I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....
Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.
Just had a chat with someone who has never been at the Saints and in fact wouldn't even know who Ross Lyon is.

It's not coincidence that the cost of power bills is going up.

Carry on........


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stinger
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Post: # 1024928Post stinger »

name names.....or else no one is going to believe you....


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

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Post: # 1024946Post asiu »

:D

helllllllo rodge

merry christmas to you too.

how are those little saints supporters doing ?


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stinger
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Post: # 1024948Post stinger »

gazrat wrote::D

helllllllo rodge

merry christmas to you too.

how are those little saints supporters doing ?
nice to see you posting on here gazza..... :wink: :wink: :wink:


ps...don't get into a flame war with r f ffs.... :?


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

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Post: # 1024966Post asiu »

i love the fox.

a huge soft spot in fact. :D

saintnsational at its very best.

in fact , fwiw , one of my personal favourites.


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.name the ways , thought manipulates the State of Presence away.

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stinger
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Post: # 1024974Post stinger »

gazrat wrote:i love the fox.

a huge soft spot in fact. :D

saintnsational at its very best.

in fact , fwiw , one of my personal favourites.

good to hear....... :wink:


.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will

"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"

However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
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Post: # 1025000Post BAM! (shhhh) »

rodgerfox wrote:
meher baba wrote:
stinger wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :wink:

you might just be onto something there....
I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....
Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.
Don't buy into the conspiracy theories - that's how they get ya!


"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
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Post: # 1025004Post BAM! (shhhh) »

Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Having come back across this today, the above is my favorite saintsational post. Ever.

from Wikipedia:
"Orwellian" describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society. It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments. Often, this includes the circumstances depicted in his novels, particularly Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Pleasing. Very pleasing indeed.


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Post: # 1025008Post Dr Spaceman »

BAM! (shhhh) wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Having come back across this today, the above is my favorite saintsational post. Ever.

from Wikipedia:
"Orwellian" describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society. It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments. Often, this includes the circumstances depicted in his novels, particularly Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Pleasing. Very pleasing indeed.
Yep, that sums up Ross to a tee.

OR, as I posted before, he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :)


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Post: # 1025016Post BAM! (shhhh) »

Dr Spaceman wrote:
BAM! (shhhh) wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Having come back across this today, the above is my favorite saintsational post. Ever.

from Wikipedia:
"Orwellian" describes the situation, idea, or societal condition that George Orwell identified as being destructive to the welfare of a free society. It connotes an attitude and a policy of control by propaganda, surveillance, misinformation, denial of truth, and manipulation of the past, including the "unperson" — a person whose past existence is expunged from the public record and memory, practiced by modern repressive governments. Often, this includes the circumstances depicted in his novels, particularly Nineteen Eighty-Four.

Pleasing. Very pleasing indeed.
Yep, that sums up Ross to a tee.

OR, as I posted before, he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :)
I suppose it's not exclusive - Lyon can spend years as a megalomaniac brainwashing us all with ideas of "Structure" and "Preparation" to an eventual redemption by trying to heroically get a young girl back to her home in the balloon they construct together...

that sounds so much more sinister in a contemporary setting...


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Post: # 1025031Post Con Gorozidis »

rodgerfox wrote:
meher baba wrote:
stinger wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :wink:

you might just be onto something there....
I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....
Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.
you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!


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Post: # 1025045Post Dr Spaceman »

Con Gorozidis wrote:...my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!
Con, is THIS you :wink:

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Post: # 1025098Post rodgerfox »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
meher baba wrote:
stinger wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :wink:

you might just be onto something there....
I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....
Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.
you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!
At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"


plugger66
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Post: # 1025102Post plugger66 »

rodgerfox wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
meher baba wrote:
stinger wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :wink:

you might just be onto something there....
I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....
Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.
you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!
At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"
Funny that. I spoke to a now ex coach GF night and he had loved his time at the saints. Also spoken to a couple of current coaches who love it to. So does that make your one guy right or my 3 guys right?
Last edited by plugger66 on Mon 22 Nov 2010 5:36pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post: # 1025103Post Dr Spaceman »

rodgerfox wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:
rodgerfox wrote:
meher baba wrote:
stinger wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.

Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition :wink:

you might just be onto something there....
I've never heard of a successful sporting coach who managed by consensus.....
Actually had a chat with a recent ex-Saints assistant coach who worked under Lyon.
Is good mates with a mutual friend.


It's not coincidence that that we've lost assitants left, right and centre.
you dnot need to name names. no journo would so wjy should u - this is a published forum. but can u provide a general explanation?

my theory is he places ideology and the system above common sense in a kind of orwellian way. the system reflects his own ego fantasy (working class vanilla reservoir upbringing) approach. this "idea" can get in the way of common sense and practicality and can stifle dissent or different views.


it is good to have belief in a system - it emboldens followers and gives confidence. but u can overstep this and become beligenerent to te poont that ur followers are disempowered and u can be left alone.

thats why i think the saints need a bit of ROCK N ROLL in 2011!

Saints Footy 2011 - bringing back the rock n roll!
At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"
Ross may have said the same thing about your mate's mate!


SainterK
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Post: # 1025125Post SainterK »

rodgerfox wrote:
At one point, he used these exact words....

"You just can't work with the bloke"
:o


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