I choose integrity!

[thejiggingsaint]

"cheating is morally justifiable"

[Sainter_Dad]

I have been thinking for a while that Geelong are the real winners out of the Fish-lips saga. Aside from timing (ie Bomber leaving it so late to tell them).

An untallented hack about to be sacked, suddenly the group clicks with some absolute superstars in it - I reckon Mr Magoo from the Upper West League Two's could have coached the Geelong Powerhouse to three flags. Then the list ages a bit - and the golden boy heads North - suddenly Bomber thinks - I am a better ASSistant coach - off to Essendon for me.

Smacks of reputation protecting by a less than average coach IMHO.

[Dr Spaceman]

I have been thinking for a while that Geelong are the real winners out of the Fish-lips saga. Aside from timing (ie Bomber leaving it so late to tell them).

An untallented hack about to be sacked, suddenly the group clicks with some absolute superstars in it - I reckon Mr Magoo from the Upper West League Two's could have coached the Geelong Powerhouse to three flags. Then the list ages a bit - and the golden boy heads North - suddenly Bomber thinks - I am a better ASSistant coach - off to Essendon for me.

Smacks of reputation protecting by a less than average coach IMHO.

Leaving aside the 2 flags he's won as a coach, and we can debate how much credit he should get for those, I simply can't stand the bloke.

He just comes across as a totally miserable human being.

But that's just my view based on his public persona.

[plugger66]

I have been thinking for a while that Geelong are the real winners out of the Fish-lips saga. Aside from timing (ie Bomber leaving it so late to tell them).

An untallented hack about to be sacked, suddenly the group clicks with some absolute superstars in it - I reckon Mr Magoo from the Upper West League Two's could have coached the Geelong Powerhouse to three flags. Then the list ages a bit - and the golden boy heads North - suddenly Bomber thinks - I am a better ASSistant coach - off to Essendon for me.

Smacks of reputation protecting by a less than average coach IMHO.

Yep a hack coach but wins 2 flags. That makes sense. However unlike our side who has the best coach in the AFL but cant win a flag at the moment.

Why did they click? Because of the coach doing the coaching and not all the other stuff.

[R. Harvey 3 votes!]

There are some posters on here who, in light of the Bomber Thompson defection to Essendon, have declared that "if it wins a flag any tactic is justified" Well Folks, I'm a wee bit old fashioned but I want not a bar of ANY flag that has been won by anything other than by HONEST ENDEAVOUR!
As the prophet said "what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his own soul?"
If we can't win the damn thing fair and square then I dont want it!!!!!!

This is rubbish...Who cares about fair and square, life isn't far, look at all of the rubbush we have copped over the years. Sometimes you have to win it anyway you can. If we win it, no matter how we do it, it will be a life long dream come true for me and I will still feel the same anyway. So who cares take what is ours and just win the bloody thing!

[Mr Magic]

There are some posters on here who, in light of the Bomber Thompson defection to Essendon, have declared that "if it wins a flag any tactic is justified" Well Folks, I'm a wee bit old fashioned but I want not a bar of ANY flag that has been won by anything other than by HONEST ENDEAVOUR!
As the prophet said "what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his own soul?"
If we can't win the damn thing fair and square then I dont want it!!!!!!

This is rubbish...Who cares about fair and square, life isn't far, look at all of the rubbush we have copped over the years. Sometimes you have to win it anyway you can. If we win it, no matter how we do it, it will be a life long dream come true for me and I will still feel the same anyway. So who cares take what is ours and just win the bloody thing!

Does that attitude apply only to AFL football?

How about Junior Football:-
U19
U17
U15
U11
U9
Auskick

When does that attitude not apply to team sport?

[Dr Spaceman]

There are some posters on here who, in light of the Bomber Thompson defection to Essendon, have declared that "if it wins a flag any tactic is justified" Well Folks, I'm a wee bit old fashioned but I want not a bar of ANY flag that has been won by anything other than by HONEST ENDEAVOUR!
As the prophet said "what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but suffers the loss of his own soul?"
If we can't win the damn thing fair and square then I dont want it!!!!!!

This is rubbish...Who cares about fair and square, life isn't far, look at all of the rubbush we have copped over the years. Sometimes you have to win it anyway you can. If we win it, no matter how we do it, it will be a life long dream come true for me and I will still feel the same anyway. So who cares take what is ours and just win the bloody thing!

The line between a lack of integrity and cheating can become blurred.

As desperate as we all are for a flag most, although perhaps not all, of us would have a problem if that flag was gained by the latter.

[ChicagoSaint]

my personal belief is that it has less to do with fishlips and more to do with judas.
in saying, it has less to do with a 'desire' to be a senior coach and more to do with what may or may not have been done whilst a senior coach.

is there something/anything at geelong that may have happened repeatedly over time fishlips needed rather than wanted to distance himself from?

[ralphsmith]

I don't go to bed with no whore and i don't wake up with no whore.

That's how i live with myself.

'Carl Fox.

[saintbrat]

my personal belief is that it has less to do with fishlips and more to do with judas.
in saying, it has less to do with a 'desire' to be a senior coach and more to do with what may or may not have been done whilst a senior coach.

is there something/anything at geelong that may have happened repeatedly over time fishlips needed rather than wanted to distance himself from?

maybe sick of juggling,,,

[ChicagoSaint]

I have been thinking for a while that Geelong are the real winners out of the Fish-lips saga. Aside from timing (ie Bomber leaving it so late to tell them).

An untallented hack about to be sacked, suddenly the group clicks with some absolute superstars in it - I reckon Mr Magoo from the Upper West League Two's could have coached the Geelong Powerhouse to three flags. Then the list ages a bit - and the golden boy heads North - suddenly Bomber thinks - I am a better ASSistant coach - off to Essendon for me.

Smacks of reputation protecting by a less than average coach IMHO.

smacks of reputation protection you're right but yeah.

this has played-out in the media as a want from fishlips rather than what i feel it may be in need.

is it all just pure need rather than mere desire?
is there something/anything there that may be seriously damaging?

[thejiggingsaint]

So if we take it that "cheating is morally justifable" to win the premiership, then Carlton rorting the salary cap, and Collingwood rorting the draft are tactics that are acceptable?
History shows that Argentina won a world cup game in 1986 with the assistance of blatant cheating (hand of God incident) as far as I'm concerned that win is tainted.
As I said earlier in the thread; its only my opinion, if others disagree with me, then so be it, no harm done, we just have differing priorities.
regards to all

Dave

By the way, Satchmo me old Pal! Fair comment!! Excellent point!!!!

[gringo]

Apparently making profits is the only thing that constitutes success. The legacy that is left after the current batch is gone doesn't matter.

the AFL is currently trying to do a deal that sees current profits soar in light of selling a greater percentage of high profile matches to Foxtel. This is going to senator Conroy at the moment and he is suggesting that he will grant a licence to sell a greater percentage to payTV- relaxing anti syphoning laws to suit.

Your profits at all costs mentality is like a pack of short sighted juveniles selling out the future for the now.

The Soccer federation will get a look in now that the AFL is keen on selling out the free to air networks. This is like a dream come true for soccer and will in the future see AFL wind back from it's place at the top of local sport.

As for the AFLs lack of integrity, I was referring to the fact that they don't police their own laws f%$# wits.

[Thinline]

It's a game of inches and on the day of the drawn Grand Final we were playing a team with more inches:

Having the best facilities in the league (versus the worst) obviously gave them a few inches.

A ludicrously generous run of games at the Grand Final venue with the best surface in the league (as opposed to our punishing schedule on the worst). More inches.

A minimal number of games interstate (4) including none in the last 9(?) rounds. As opposed to 6 games interstate, including one in the last round. More inches. (And even more inches in 2011.)

Jolly and Ball declare they want to go to Collingwood (and only Collingwood) in the draft. The AFL looks the other way. More inches.

The MRP wipes out Steven Baker for a ludicrous nine games over trifling incidents. Simple system corruption. The nine weeks disrupts Baker's match fitness and very likely contributes to his indifferent form in the GFs. Another quarter-inch.

And maybe another quarter inch here: St Kilda is the first team in history forced to wear an ugly clash strip in a Grand Final. (And will probably remain the only club to do so -- can you imagine the AFL doing it to Carlton?) Ironically, we were playing one of two teams (Essendon being the other) that effectively doesn't have a clash strip. But the AFL didn't force them to get one.

And I'm sure you can come up with even more inches.

Bottom line: the game is corrupt, rewarding some clubs at the expense of others. In such an environment, integrity doesn't go very far and cheating is morally justifiable.

Excellent post!

How many inches is playing under the roof at Telstra Dome worth?



We rarely lose there. Gets us 2/3 of the way to a double chance most years (recently). Far as I can see it pretty much cancels out everything else...

[plugger66]

Apparently making profits is the only thing that constitutes success. The legacy that is left after the current batch is gone doesn't matter.

the AFL is currently trying to do a deal that sees current profits soar in light of selling a greater percentage of high profile matches to Foxtel. This is going to senator Conroy at the moment and he is suggesting that he will grant a licence to sell a greater percentage to payTV- relaxing anti syphoning laws to suit.

Your profits at all costs mentality is like a pack of short sighted juveniles selling out the future for the now.

The Soccer federation will get a look in now that the AFL is keen on selling out the free to air networks. This is like a dream come true for soccer and will in the future see AFL wind back from it's place at the top of local sport.

As for the AFLs lack of integrity, I was referring to the fact that they don't police their own laws f%$# wits.

Yes it was much better when most clubs were going broke and the AFL wanted either clubs out or merged. Cant stand business that try and make a profit. You also mention Soccer. If we miss out on the world cup Foxtel will be lucky to show interest in showing the game let alone the Free to air networks. No crowds equals no sponsorship which equals no advertising.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I find it very sad that some have so little good going on in their lives that they'd be happy to "win a flag at any cost". I sure as hell don't. I wouldn't want to be them in a million years.
For instance, I sat near some, who were barracking for Hawthorn, at the 2008 Prelim, who were just despicable. Bagging and abusing pretty much anyone on our team, including saying some terrible things about Robert Harvey (in what was clearly becoming his last game). They were just being atrocious and spoiled the GAME (it's a GAME, remember) and I went away form the game feeling sick that some would stoop so low and thought to myself that if you had to be like they were, for instance, to win a flag, you could sure as hell count me out.
There are plenty of things I wouldn't do to win a flag and I feel sorry for those who reckon they'd do anything to win one. There's far more to life, folks.

[thejiggingsaint]

+1 from the Jiggster! Great post AnythingsPossibleSaints! I'm well aware that "The world isn't fair" I've been on the wrong end of some reprehensible acts during my sixty five years of life. Has this meant that I should live MY life that way? Certainly NOT! has it stopped me from TRYING to do the right thing? Certainly not!

[Eastern]

+1 from the Jiggster! Great post AnythingsPossibleSaints! I'm well aware that "The world isn't fair" I've been on the wrong end of some reprehensible acts during my sixty five years of life. Has this meant that I should live MY life that way? Certainly NOT! has it stopped me from TRYING to do the right thing? Certainly not!

Well all we need now is for the hand of integrity to enter the pocket of integrity whilst standing at a BAR somewhere some time soon !!

[Thinline]

I'd like to think my flag will be clean and crisp.

Still, she's a dirty old game...always has been, really...

[rexy]

Cant see how approaching a coach who is under contract is morally wrong, nor can I see how fish face wanting to keep his business, his business is wrong either. Too many people getting the emotional side of football that the fan feels, mixed up with the professional side that the players and coaches and administrators are involved in.

No different to any other business IMO, you would never tell your current employer you are fishing around for another job just in case you dont get it or dont like their offer and you have to stick with your current job?

[Bernard Shakey]

Jiggster, your argument is seriously flawed.

If MT was the contracted coach of St Kilda after 11 years and a couple of premierships, would you want to keep him on after he said he's had enough?

It matters not where he goes, he's finished that job and needs to move on.

Hand of God and all that rubbish is a myth. What was Marodonna meant to do? Say "Sorry, I touched it". You need to catch up with the 20th century, it's the 21st century now.

[Dr Spaceman]

I find it very sad that some have so little good going on in their lives that they'd be happy to "win a flag at any cost". I sure as hell don't. I wouldn't want to be them in a million years.
For instance, I sat near some, who were barracking for Hawthorn, at the 2008 Prelim, who were just despicable. Bagging and abusing pretty much anyone on our team, including saying some terrible things about Robert Harvey (in what was clearly becoming his last game). They were just being atrocious and spoiled the GAME (it's a GAME, remember) and I went away form the game feeling sick that some would stoop so low and thought to myself that if you had to be like they were, for instance, to win a flag, you could sure as hell count me out.
There are plenty of things I wouldn't do to win a flag and I feel sorry for those who reckon they'd do anything to win one. There's far more to life, folks.

I'm old enough to remember going to the footy when we, along with Fitzroy and South Melbourne, were the basket cases of the, then, VFL.

Considering those dark old days, I'm immensely proud of where the club sits right now, albeit without a second Premiership Cup to grace the trophy cabinet.

The Swans have of course won a flag since then; the Lions three.

But if you're talking about winning a flag at all costs, then the price those two clubs paid is something I'd never agree to!!!

[thejiggingsaint]

Good post "Doc". As far as the "hand of God" incident goes Bernard; Maradonna doesn't have to say ANYTHING after the event! The point I made was that he CHEATED (i/e broke the rules) to "score" that goal and sadly the wonder goal he scored after is overshadowed by the act of cheating and Maradonna forever after has been judged by that action.
Thanks for the "century check" too by the way! I lose track at my age!
Regards

Dave

[Mr Magic]

Hand of God and all that rubbish is a myth. What was Marodonna meant to do? Say "Sorry, I touched it". You need to catch up with the 20th century, it's the 21st century now.

Maybe like when a fieldsman in cricket tells the umpire thet 'the ball didn't carry'?
Or when Gilchrist 'walked' when he considered he was out?

[Dr Spaceman]

Hand of God and all that rubbish is a myth. What was Marodonna meant to do? Say "Sorry, I touched it". You need to catch up with the 20th century, it's the 21st century now.

Maybe like when a fieldsman in cricket tells the umpire thet 'the ball didn't carry'?
Or when Gilchrist 'walked' when he considered he was out?

Or when Tom Hawkins told the goal umpire......oh wait a minute!