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Con Gorozidis wrote:ross just played the same blokes all the time and would only promote vfl guys if there were serious injuries in the main group.
There were pretty much injuries all year long. Aside from Smith, I don't think a senior player could claim they didn't get a shot. Gwilt was the only player who came from outside the 22 and really made a spot his own. Steven showed some promise, but his last couple of games were terrible. Stanley looked really good while doing nothing. Armo couldn't find any consistent form. Geary tailed off as the year went on.
Ross played our senior players because they were our best chance of winning.
geary was in our best in the rd 16 loss v pies. in round 19 and 20 he had 23 and 24 disposals.
eddy got injured in rd 20. was bought back for finals and then had 10, 8, 7, 1.
i also dont understand why smith wasnt given a game in the last 2 rounds.
i cant understand it. u need to play young guys even if as contingency for injury.
In retrospect, certainly in light of Miles delisting, you'd have to say it would have been better to give a game or two to Smith or Simpkin. It certainly does make it appear is if selection committee errs on the side of picking older players if they pick a guy, he plays well and he gets shown the door.
Eddy and Geary are apples and oranges though. Geary got much more midfield time and spent some time playing in the back half. It was always likely he'd end up with more ball. Eddy was a better contested ball player.
The injuries wouldn't have helped, neither would have the massive deficit in inside fifties in the GFs. I still believe that that spot is a cursed one. With Roo, Kos, Milne and Schneids, nobody is ever going to be a consistent performer as a sixth forward. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but Steven's best games were when Roo wasn't there. Playing Mini and Eddy might not have been inspired, but at least you know they're going to work both ways. We don't know that about some of our more attacking kids.
vacuous space wrote:
The injuries wouldn't have helped, neither would have the massive deficit in inside fifties in the GFs. I still believe that that spot is a cursed one. With Roo, Kos, Milne and Schneids, nobody is ever going to be a consistent performer as a sixth forward. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but Steven's best games were when Roo wasn't there. Playing Mini and Eddy might not have been inspired, but at least you know they're going to work both ways. We don't know that about some of our more attacking kids.
I enjoy your posts - some good points.
Those lamenting Riewoldt in GF2 make me laugh.....I just sat there and watched us get slaughtered out of the middle with a 21 yr old in the ruck up against a seasoned pro in form who took him and us to the cleaners.......and couldnt help but think.........."whats the best the papers write this up as Riewoldts fault?"
That aside I too agree that 6th fwd spot is a tough one but reality is we havent had anyone demand the ball in that spot....imagine a Goddard (would never do this but lets pretend)......I suspect hed demand the footy, enabling him and us to be far less predictable and attacking.
I miss Aaron Hamill btw.......I often think.....in the tough, bash and crash of a GF how good would this guy have been?
vacuous space wrote:
The injuries wouldn't have helped, neither would have the massive deficit in inside fifties in the GFs. I still believe that that spot is a cursed one. With Roo, Kos, Milne and Schneids, nobody is ever going to be a consistent performer as a sixth forward. I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but Steven's best games were when Roo wasn't there. Playing Mini and Eddy might not have been inspired, but at least you know they're going to work both ways. We don't know that about some of our more attacking kids.
I enjoy your posts - some good points.
Those lamenting Riewoldt in GF2 make me laugh.....I just sat there and watched us get slaughtered out of the middle with a 21 yr old in the ruck up against a seasoned pro in form who took him and us to the cleaners.......and couldnt help but think.........."whats the best the papers write this up as Riewoldts fault?"
That aside I too agree that 6th fwd spot is a tough one but reality is we havent had anyone demand the ball in that spot....imagine a Goddard (would never do this but lets pretend)......I suspect hed demand the footy, enabling him and us to be far less predictable and attacking.
I miss Aaron Hamill btw.......I often think.....in the tough, bash and crash of a GF how good would this guy have been?
It's my view that both Gwilt and Allen, in his tragically brief career, suffered stage fright when trying to find their feet in our high profile forward line.
A combination of not wanting to get in the way of the big names and team mates ignoring them for the big names.
With Gwilt it certainly helped him when he went back and was given a task to focus on.
i went into my local afl store today.....to buy one of my grandsons a birthday present...the guy behind the counter who knows me started the conversation off with..."that coach of yours gives me the s***s"....not an uncommon sentiment since gf 2...
Last edited by stinger on Tue 16 Nov 2010 9:16am, edited 1 time in total.
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
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Con Gorozidis wrote:ross just played the same blokes all the time and would only promote vfl guys if there were serious injuries in the main group.
There were pretty much injuries all year long. Aside from Smith, I don't think a senior player could claim they didn't get a shot. Gwilt was the only player who came from outside the 22 and really made a spot his own. Steven showed some promise, but his last couple of games were terrible. Stanley looked really good while doing nothing. Armo couldn't find any consistent form. Geary tailed off as the year went on.
Ross played our senior players because they were our best chance of winning.
geary was in our best in the rd 16 loss v pies. in round 19 and 20 he had 23 and 24 disposals.
eddy got injured in rd 20. was bought back for finals and then had 10, 8, 7, 1.
i also dont understand why smith wasnt given a game in the last 2 rounds.
i cant understand it. u need to play young guys even if as contingency for injury.
It was reported after the GF (I think it was on AFL.com.au) that Geary had an undisclosed injury.
Con Gorozidis wrote:i have been saying all year that there appears to be a poor development culture and incentive structure at the saints. this explains why the vfl players havent been "knocking the door down".
No offence Con, but this attitude actually makes me a little huffy.
I am still quite young (I think so anyway) but why on earth would I have to wait for someone to motivate me?
If the incentive of a spot in the best 22 isn't enough....well (shrugs)
Con Gorozidis wrote:i have been saying all year that there appears to be a poor development culture and incentive structure at the saints. this explains why the vfl players havent been "knocking the door down".
No offence Con, but this attitude actually makes me a little huffy.
I am still quite young (I think so anyway) but why on earth would I have to wait for someone to motivate me?
If the incentive of a spot in the best 22 isn't enough....well (shrugs)
I think Con is talking about if you get in the best in the VFL it gives you chance for promotion which currently it doesn't neccessarily as opposed to being picked cause you meet a need according to the game plan strategy and injuries.
Confusing isn't it.
Kids lose belief and motivation if its not performance based IMO.
The senior guys trained separately from the others for most of the year. Would it not help the developing players to train with the senior group all the time? Would it not help the coach to assess them?
Con Gorozidis wrote:i have been saying all year that there appears to be a poor development culture and incentive structure at the saints. this explains why the vfl players havent been "knocking the door down".
No offence Con, but this attitude actually makes me a little huffy.
I am still quite young (I think so anyway) but why on earth would I have to wait for someone to motivate me?
If the incentive of a spot in the best 22 isn't enough....well (shrugs)
I think Con is talking about if you get in the best in the VFL it gives you chance for promotion which currently it doesn't neccessarily as opposed to being picked cause you meet a need according to the game plan strategy and injuries.
Confusing isn't it.
Kids lose belief and motivation if its not performance based IMO.
thanks shaggy. you articulated my thoughts better than i could. yes thats exactly what i was trying to say. im not talking ra ra yelling motivation. i mean the incentive system as a whole seems to have placed the "role" above actual performance. so lets say u performed at 100% effort over 2 years and i said mate ur doing well but ur a square peg and ive only got 5 round holes so no matter what u do ull always be a square peg - but u should work on being a round peg. i reckon ud lose a bit of ur motivation.
Con Gorozidis wrote:i have been saying all year that there appears to be a poor development culture and incentive structure at the saints. this explains why the vfl players havent been "knocking the door down".
No offence Con, but this attitude actually makes me a little huffy.
I am still quite young (I think so anyway) but why on earth would I have to wait for someone to motivate me?
If the incentive of a spot in the best 22 isn't enough....well (shrugs)
I think Con is talking about if you get in the best in the VFL it gives you chance for promotion which currently it doesn't neccessarily as opposed to being picked cause you meet a need according to the game plan strategy and injuries.
Confusing isn't it.
Kids lose belief and motivation if its not performance based IMO.
thanks shaggy. you articulated my thoughts better than i could. yes thats exactly what i was trying to say. im not talking ra ra yelling motivation. i mean the incentive system as a whole seems to have placed the "role" above actual performance. so lets say u performed at 100% effort over 2 years and i said mate ur doing well but ur a square peg and ive only got 5 round holes so no matter what u do ull always be a square peg - but u should work on being a round peg. i reckon ud lose a bit of ur motivation.
its a bit like racism.
Most of what you say makes sense though whether this is actually happening we can only surmise.
But the last bit of your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - IMO of course.
Dr Spaceman wrote:It's my view that both Gwilt and Allen, in his tragically brief career, suffered stage fright when trying to find their feet in our high profile forward line.
A combination of not wanting to get in the way of the big names and team mates ignoring them for the big names.
With Gwilt it certainly helped him when he went back and was given a task to focus on.
a correct assessment.
precisely why roo has taken big stanley under his wing.
roo has recognised the potential in the young man and is showing him all the tricks.
not just the marking tricks, the endurance tricks etc the tricks to 'not getting in my way' aswell.
i'm expecting a huge push from young stanley in 2011 - a HUGE push!
Dr Spaceman wrote:
But the last bit of your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - IMO of course.
well its like whiteys saying to blackfellas - no matter what u do ull always be a blackfella and wont be accepted into the system. could be unmotivating.
Dr Spaceman wrote:
But the last bit of your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - IMO of course.
well its like whiteys saying to blackfellas - no matter what u do ull always be a blackfella and wont be accepted into the system. could be unmotivating.
but yeah im drawing a longbow with that one
More chance that the peg will change shape that the blackfella will change into a whitey
with regard to incentive;
it's just a bloody hard team to get into.
take the five guys on the header for example: steven, clarke, stanley, heyne and walsh. only one of them is an incumbent: clarke
the other four guys are in calculations dependent upon style/opportunity/direction.
their introduction over the next few years is a staggeringly daunting study for opposition teams.
you're playing adelaide adelaide are going jack steven is giving us a new one
you're playing sydney sydney are going walsh just broke me, it's serious.
you're playing brisbane brisbane are going looks like we need a stanley
you're playing geelong and geelong are heyne is tougher than i thought put scarlo on him.
point is they'll all get their chance. the idea that there is a policy of exclusion is unadulterated folly.
From the games I saw of Sandy this year, there wasn't much push from the reserves to get into the seniors.
Some people here want to reward players with a senior gig when they didn't deserve it.
Lance or James??
There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
joffaboy wrote:From the games I saw of Sandy this year, there wasn't much push from the reserves to get into the seniors.
Some people here want to reward players with a senior gig when they didn't deserve it.
Which is why i think Eddy played in the grand final. No other players had the form or the body to stand up to the physical pressure.
Another pre-season into Steven, Heyne, Stanley and Lynch. Hopefully they're bodies will be up to it. This will have a bearing on how well we will do in the next few years.
We also need to start getting games into players with a bit of X factor. And from what i have seen, Steven, Heyne, Stanley and even Walsh have a bit of it. Eddy did not.
joffaboy wrote:From the games I saw of Sandy this year, there wasn't much push from the reserves to get into the seniors.
Some people here want to reward players with a senior gig when they didn't deserve it.
biggest misnomer in footy,
'he was good for ______ but isn't getting picked, there is something wrong with ______ and the selection commitee because the guy bursts his pump every week and ______ isn't giving him an opportunity.'
joffaboy wrote:From the games I saw of Sandy this year, there wasn't much push from the reserves to get into the seniors.
Some people here want to reward players with a senior gig when they didn't deserve it.
Which is why i think Eddy played in the grand final. No other players had the form or the body to stand up to the physical pressure.
Another pre-season into Steven, Heyne, Stanley and Lynch. Hopefully they're bodies will be up to it. This will have a bearing on how well we will do in the next few years.
We also need to start getting games into players with a bit of X factor. And from what i have seen, Steven, Heyne, Stanley and even Walsh have a bit of it. Eddy did not.
all true except for the "need" part.
players get the games when they are picked and they understand that.
the only need is the need from supporters to stop suggesting the need for things.
i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.
Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition
Con Gorozidis wrote:i reckon RL is a bit orwellian. too much faith in the system of control. i know saints in the past have been way too rock'n'roll and we DEFINITELY needed some system. but have lurched too far in search of the dream? A society that went from years of anarchy to an over-reaching Brave New World Order?
Perhaps.
Or he could be just a middle aged man, with thinning hair, strong ideas and a stubborn disposition
you might just be onto something there....
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Con Gorozidis wrote:i have been saying all year that there appears to be a poor development culture and incentive structure at the saints. this explains why the vfl players havent been "knocking the door down".
No offence Con, but this attitude actually makes me a little huffy.
I am still quite young (I think so anyway) but why on earth would I have to wait for someone to motivate me?
If the incentive of a spot in the best 22 isn't enough....well (shrugs)
I think Con is talking about if you get in the best in the VFL it gives you chance for promotion which currently it doesn't neccessarily as opposed to being picked cause you meet a need according to the game plan strategy and injuries.
Confusing isn't it.
Kids lose belief and motivation if its not performance based IMO.
thanks shaggy. you articulated my thoughts better than i could. yes thats exactly what i was trying to say. im not talking ra ra yelling motivation. i mean the incentive system as a whole seems to have placed the "role" above actual performance. so lets say u performed at 100% effort over 2 years and i said mate ur doing well but ur a square peg and ive only got 5 round holes so no matter what u do ull always be a square peg - but u should work on being a round peg. i reckon ud lose a bit of ur motivation.
its a bit like racism.
I can't think of anyone who falls in this catergory though, unless people are saying our bright young stars have slowly dimmed and lost motivation through lack of opportunity and I'm only seeing the end result?
Can someone give me some examples?
All of Lynch, Miles, Steven, Armo and Geary as far as I'm aware this year, struggled with injuries/medical issues, some late into the season.
We have to be mindful, it's easy to have a whinge and point the finger elsewhere.
too easy or so it would seem SK.
we didn't win the flag so we need to look back and ask ourselves why that happened rather than assess the improvement?
