Lyon

[borderbarry]

To improve our team for the future, what type of player, do we need to recruit, or for what positions?

For a start, we all know we need to recruit a ruckman as we just lost three. But I would have that as a lower priority than for instance another hard, inside mid.

Your thoughts and ideas please.

[PeckettofChips]

you're a prick.

Have a look a the can Omaha saint. You are spraying it in your own face!
LOL!

[gringo]

Like Grant he got a great list but on big money -sadly they seemed to be injury prone come finals time.

We have done well to move on some of those guys that were all potential with no actual input.

Unfortunately Grant had us up the top of the ladder for a few years which cost high draft picks. Our core of good players came when we were at the bottom of the ladder.

For what he has been able to get on the park and maintain as far as the list goes he has done well. We just need some of our fringe players to make the jump to elite and we will have a great coach. A bit of bad luck and he will be forgotten like all the other almost coaches. Tough caper.

[bigcarl]

For a start, we all know we need to recruit a ruckman as we just lost three. But I would have that as a lower priority than for instance another hard, inside mid.

Agree.

If Armo cannot make that spot his own it may present an opportunity for McQualter or Eddy to reinvent themselves as something other than defensive forwards who defend ably but do not win much ball or kick many goals.

Both are hard at the ball and Eddy in particular tackles like a maniac. Whether they can win enough of it is the question.

We should think laterally about who else can go into the midfield rotation.

I think a couple of bigger bodied guys such as Gilbert and Raph could play there (though Gilbert might be looking at a key forward spot).

[dcstkfc]

It's rubbish to suggest that Lyon inherited anything other than a wonderful list. (He certainly hasn't done all that much to add to it, and yet we made two GFs in a row!)

Gardiner, Ray, Jones, Dawson, Schneider, Dempster, Peake, McEvoy and King all nearly being premiership players would suggest otherwise.

[Saints43]

It's rubbish to suggest that Lyon inherited anything other than a wonderful list. (He certainly hasn't done all that much to add to it, and yet we made two GFs in a row!)

Gardiner, Ray, Jones, Dawson, Schneider, Dempster, Peake, McEvoy and King all nearly being premiership players would suggest otherwise.

Some of those blokes certainly played their part in the reason you had to use the word 'nearly'.

I think we can safely say that RL inherited the second best list ( Lions with Matthews was better) of a new coach for 20 odd years. He's had four years to work with it and mostly tinkered around the fringes. He hasn't traded out any established names after two GF losses. He obviously thinks it's a bloody good list.

[Ghost Like]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

Interesting theory...

If that really is the case & an example of how well run footy clubs would react then we would have won the flag this year because Malthouse would have been sacked 7 years ago & Figjam would have been coach effectively giving Collingwood a 'Voss' like chance of winning this year meaning we would have played Geelong, the Dogs or the Dockers.

Theories are great aren't they until they are exposed as moronic drivel. If you are a Collingwood supporter, go and enjoy your win, why are you here? If you're not a Collingwood supporter because I don't believe you are a St Kilda supporter, then...why are you here? (An even sadder scenario IMO)

[SainterK]

It's rubbish to suggest that Lyon inherited anything other than a wonderful list. (He certainly hasn't done all that much to add to it, and yet we made two GFs in a row!)

Gardiner, Ray, Jones, Dawson, Schneider, Dempster, Peake, McEvoy and King all nearly being premiership players would suggest otherwise.

Some of those blokes certainly played their part in the reason you had to use the word 'nearly'.

I think we can safely say that RL inherited the second best list ( Lions with Matthews was better) of a new coach for 20 odd years. He's had four years to work with it and mostly tinkered around the fringes. He hasn't traded out any established names after two GF losses. He obviously thinks it's a bloody good list.

Could easily make a case that there were others part of the 'best list' that also a major factor in the 'nearly' S43, especially in the replay.

It was a very good list when he took over, and it still remains very much so now.

[PeckettofChips]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

Interesting theory...

If that really is the case & an example of how well run footy clubs would react then we would have won the flag this year because Malthouse would have been sacked 7 years ago & Figjam would have been coach effectively giving Collingwood a 'Voss' like chance of winning this year meaning we would have played Geelong, the Dogs or the Dockers.

Theories are great aren't they until they are exposed as moronic drivel. If you are a Collingwood supporter, go and enjoy your win, why are you here? If you're not a Collingwood supporter because I don't believe you are a St Kilda supporter, then...why are you here? (An even sadder scenario IMO)

Wrong on both counts. I am just older and have seen more footy.

Coming second means bupkiss. You will see what I mean when they host the FOoty Marathon and the 2009 GF draw comes up. It will be like watching 71 again when we are 20 point sup. You can see all the mistakes made and say what if....if only....why.....the end result is the same. Someone else wins and you are left feeling hollow.

I want us to win soon so that we can still go to Moorabbin and celebrate on the hallowed turf.

[SainterK]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

Interesting theory...

If that really is the case & an example of how well run footy clubs would react then we would have won the flag this year because Malthouse would have been sacked 7 years ago & Figjam would have been coach effectively giving Collingwood a 'Voss' like chance of winning this year meaning we would have played Geelong, the Dogs or the Dockers.

Theories are great aren't they until they are exposed as moronic drivel. If you are a Collingwood supporter, go and enjoy your win, why are you here? If you're not a Collingwood supporter because I don't believe you are a St Kilda supporter, then...why are you here? (An even sadder scenario IMO)

Wrong on both counts. I am just older and have seen more footy.

Coming second means bupkiss. You will see what I mean when they host the FOoty Marathon and the 2009 GF draw comes up. It will be like watching 71 again when we are 20 point sup. You can see all the mistakes made and say what if....if only....why.....the end result is the same. Someone else wins and you are left feeling hollow.

I want us to win soon so that we can still go to Moorabbin and celebrate on the hallowed turf.

Wow, 4 grand finals in two years, no wonder you're getting impatient.

[Saints43]

Could easily make a case that there were others part of the 'best list' that also a major factor in the 'nearly' S43, especially in the replay.

Very true. And we have chosen to retain them on the list. I hope that when we are challenging again next year that we are not going to have players who fail to fire a shot in their fourth attempt.

[SaintPav]

Two GF appearances including a draw and a winning percentage of around 67% does not make him overated.


When filth supporters denegrade us like that they are devaluing their premiership win. They are f***!ing idiots and the dumb arses just don't get it. I would have just told the dipsh!t to enjoy his win and stick to talking about his own fith ridden team. I would have then told the maggot to get f%cked.

[plugger66]

Two GF appearances including a draw and a winning percentage of around 67% does not make him overated.


When filth supporters denegrade us like that they are devaluing their premiership win. They are f***!ing idiots and the dumb asses just don't get it. I would have just told the dipsh!t to enjoy his win and stick to talking about their own fith ridden team. I would have then told the maggot to get f%cked.

I cant see any Pies supporter on this thread saying we were no good.

[SaintPav]

Two GF appearances including a draw and a winning percentage of around 67% does not make him overated.


When filth supporters denegrade us like that they are devaluing their premiership win. They are f***!ing idiots and the dumb asses just don't get it. I would have just told the dipsh!t to enjoy his win and stick to talking about their own fith ridden team. I would have then told the maggot to get f%cked.

I cant see any Pies supporter on this thread saying we were no good.

Erm.....Lyon is our coach plugger. Filth supporter was bagging Lyon. Just let me frigging vent.

[plugger66]

Two GF appearances including a draw and a winning percentage of around 67% does not make him overated.


When filth supporters denegrade us like that they are devaluing their premiership win. They are f***!ing idiots and the dumb asses just don't get it. I would have just told the dipsh!t to enjoy his win and stick to talking about their own fith ridden team. I would have then told the maggot to get f%cked.

I cant see any Pies supporter on this thread saying we were no good.

Erm.....Lyon is our coach plugger. Filth supporter was bagging Lyon. Just let me frigging vent.

You said the dipshit as if it was someone on here who said it. Anyway they won and they can say what they like. I will not be having anything to say to them unless we win it next year.

[SainterK]

Two GF appearances including a draw and a winning percentage of around 67% does not make him overated.


When filth supporters denegrade us like that they are devaluing their premiership win. They are f***!ing idiots and the dumb asses just don't get it. I would have just told the dipsh!t to enjoy his win and stick to talking about their own fith ridden team. I would have then told the maggot to get f%cked.

I cant see any Pies supporter on this thread saying we were no good.

Erm.....Lyon is our coach plugger. Filth supporter was bagging Lyon. Just let me frigging vent.

You said the dipshit as if it was someone on here who said it. Anyway they won and they can say what they like. I will not be having anything to say to them unless we win it next year.

Yep, but maybe not on here...

[plugger66]

Two GF appearances including a draw and a winning percentage of around 67% does not make him overated.


When filth supporters denegrade us like that they are devaluing their premiership win. They are f***!ing idiots and the dumb asses just don't get it. I would have just told the dipsh!t to enjoy his win and stick to talking about their own fith ridden team. I would have then told the maggot to get f%cked.

I cant see any Pies supporter on this thread saying we were no good.

Erm.....Lyon is our coach plugger. Filth supporter was bagging Lyon. Just let me frigging vent.

You said the dipshit as if it was someone on here who said it. Anyway they won and they can say what they like. I will not be having anything to say to them unless we win it next year.

Yep, but maybe not on here...

But my point is no one has on this thread but it was written as if someone had.

[saintphantom]

personally think Lyon is a good Coach. Since taking over he has lifted the team that looked to be going in the wrong direction to playing finals footy.

2010 things happened out of anyones control. Lyon let Ball go for nothing and only because he knew Lovett was coming a fast receiving midfielder badly needed. No one saw rhe incident involving Lovett coming.

Riewoldt breaking down. Well done to him making it back for the Season let alone his career.

2009 should have been the year. Lyon should have gone for the kill against Cats but he didn't. However, he did learn in the tie because he did and almost pulled it off.

He had no surprises up his sleave in the replay.

[PeckettofChips]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

Interesting theory...

If that really is the case & an example of how well run footy clubs would react then we would have won the flag this year because Malthouse would have been sacked 7 years ago & Figjam would have been coach effectively giving Collingwood a 'Voss' like chance of winning this year meaning we would have played Geelong, the Dogs or the Dockers.

Theories are great aren't they until they are exposed as moronic drivel. If you are a Collingwood supporter, go and enjoy your win, why are you here? If you're not a Collingwood supporter because I don't believe you are a St Kilda supporter, then...why are you here? (An even sadder scenario IMO)

Wrong on both counts. I am just older and have seen more footy.

Coming second means bupkiss. You will see what I mean when they host the FOoty Marathon and the 2009 GF draw comes up. It will be like watching 71 again when we are 20 point sup. You can see all the mistakes made and say what if....if only....why.....the end result is the same. Someone else wins and you are left feeling hollow.

I want us to win soon so that we can still go to Moorabbin and celebrate on the hallowed turf.

Wow, 4 grand finals in two years, no wonder you're getting impatient.

Qualified for 2 Grand iInals in two years. Where do you get "4" from?

[Ice Wolf]

He had no surprises up his sleave in the replay.

I'd say he had no fit players left, that being said if we'd nailed even a couple of our chances early it would have been a different game.

hopefully the monumentally stupid thing Roo did will be shown to the players over and over, what was going through his (Roo's) head trying that I don't know.

[Legendary]

I think you have to look the careers of AFL coaches from a bigger picture point of view, and they certainly can't be judged based on isolated seasons.

For example -- Lyon was appointed in 2007 with the task of taking a current core group of players (built around the 1999-2002 drafts) to a premiership within a fairly short time period. E.g. "take the next step" from being a Preliminary finalist who fell short of the ultimate.

IMO he has all but done that. He made some changes he thought necessary, and has taken the club to Prelim's in three successive years, with grand finals appearances in two of those years.

IMO coaching was not a factor in the 2009 GF loss (you may argue selection merits, but the statistics say that it was poor kicking which cost us the match). It was also not a factor in the drawn GF -- a poor second quarter the exception, but overall I thought Lyon coached better on the day.

Therefore, Lyon has basically "argued his brief" -- to take a list that he was given, add some of his philosophies and some players to improve the group, and get it to premiership success.


Unfortunately for him, the final part of that sentence has not materialised, and that has very little (IMO - this is very subjective) to do with his coaching.


However, as highly as I rate what Lyon has done over 4 years, he now enters a second phase of his coaching career.

This will be a new test for him. Clearly we all agree that new blood is required in the team, particularly youngsters, and we need to put some focus back on recruiting and development for 2011.

We still have 12-24 months of top-4 football with this CURRENT side - IMO once Lenny/Milney/Rooey/Kosi start to retire, we will start to experience some sort of decline.

The challenge for Lyon is to add regular players to the current lineup, whilst continuing to adapt the gameplan as footy changes and keep the side competitive enough to win a flag in the next 2-3 years. I believe this will be a fine balancing act, but it can be done.


Fast forward three years from now, and we will be entering a serious development phase. Not a "bottoming out" by any means - we should still play finals.
But this would be a phase focused heavily on recruiting and pumping games into youngsters to build the next core of our premiership side.


So in phase 1 (2007-10), Lyon would have to get a score of 8/10 = obviously succeeds in everything but two premierships.

In phase 2 (2011-12), Lyon will have a challenge before him, and we will get to assess him against a different standard.

In phase 3 (2013 -), there will be another different approach.



How Lyon adapts to these changes in the team balance, shifts his philosophy, shows a willingness to take advice and be flexible and continue to coach a successful team, will determine whether he is a GOOD coach (Williams) or whether he becomes a GREAT coach (Malthouse).

Mark Williams at Port managed phase 1 perfectly, and phase 2 pretty well ('07 GF appearance). However, he collapsed at phase 3.

Lyon has done an excellent job so far.

But there is a challenge ahead.

[SainterK]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

Interesting theory...

If that really is the case & an example of how well run footy clubs would react then we would have won the flag this year because Malthouse would have been sacked 7 years ago & Figjam would have been coach effectively giving Collingwood a 'Voss' like chance of winning this year meaning we would have played Geelong, the Dogs or the Dockers.

Theories are great aren't they until they are exposed as moronic drivel. If you are a Collingwood supporter, go and enjoy your win, why are you here? If you're not a Collingwood supporter because I don't believe you are a St Kilda supporter, then...why are you here? (An even sadder scenario IMO)

Wrong on both counts. I am just older and have seen more footy.

Coming second means bupkiss. You will see what I mean when they host the FOoty Marathon and the 2009 GF draw comes up. It will be like watching 71 again when we are 20 point sup. You can see all the mistakes made and say what if....if only....why.....the end result is the same. Someone else wins and you are left feeling hollow.

I want us to win soon so that we can still go to Moorabbin and celebrate on the hallowed turf.

Wow, 4 grand finals in two years, no wonder you're getting impatient.

Qualified for 2 Grand iInals in two years. Where do you get "4" from?

Your the one who said we drew in 2009...

[8bloggs]

I think you have to look the careers of AFL coaches from a bigger picture point of view, and they certainly can't be judged based on isolated seasons.

For example -- Lyon was appointed in 2007 with the task of taking a current core group of players (built around the 1999-2002 drafts) to a premiership within a fairly short time period. E.g. "take the next step" from being a Preliminary finalist who fell short of the ultimate.

IMO he has all but done that. He made some changes he thought necessary, and has taken the club to Prelim's in three successive years, with grand finals appearances in two of those years.

IMO coaching was not a factor in the 2009 GF loss (you may argue selection merits, but the statistics say that it was poor kicking which cost us the match). It was also not a factor in the drawn GF -- a poor second quarter the exception, but overall I thought Lyon coached better on the day.

Therefore, Lyon has basically "argued his brief" -- to take a list that he was given, add some of his philosophies and some players to improve the group, and get it to premiership success.


Unfortunately for him, the final part of that sentence has not materialised, and that has very little (IMO - this is very subjective) to do with his coaching.


However, as highly as I rate what Lyon has done over 4 years, he now enters a second phase of his coaching career.

This will be a new test for him. Clearly we all agree that new blood is required in the team, particularly youngsters, and we need to put some focus back on recruiting and development for 2011.

We still have 12-24 months of top-4 football with this CURRENT side - IMO once Lenny/Milney/Rooey/Kosi start to retire, we will start to experience some sort of decline.

The challenge for Lyon is to add regular players to the current lineup, whilst continuing to adapt the gameplan as footy changes and keep the side competitive enough to win a flag in the next 2-3 years. I believe this will be a fine balancing act, but it can be done.


Fast forward three years from now, and we will be entering a serious development phase. Not a "bottoming out" by any means - we should still play finals.
But this would be a phase focused heavily on recruiting and pumping games into youngsters to build the next core of our premiership side.


So in phase 1 (2007-10), Lyon would have to get a score of 8/10 = obviously succeeds in everything but two premierships.

In phase 2 (2011-12), Lyon will have a challenge before him, and we will get to assess him against a different standard.

In phase 3 (2013 -), there will be another different approach.



How Lyon adapts to these changes in the team balance, shifts his philosophy, shows a willingness to take advice and be flexible and continue to coach a successful team, will determine whether he is a GOOD coach (Williams) or whether he becomes a GREAT coach (Malthouse).

Mark Williams at Port managed phase 1 perfectly, and phase 2 pretty well ('07 GF appearance). However, he collapsed at phase 3.

Lyon has done an excellent job so far.

But there is a challenge ahead.


NOW THAT IS INSIGHT.

[Teflon]

Good post Legendary.

Id summarise Lyon so far similar - maybe a 7/10 with no flag but hes done well.

The next phase you are spot on with but I see it simply as development/rejuvination. There is no doubt we need a fresh injection of talent into the side.

What we know right now about Ross Lyon is:

1. He has a football philosophy grounded in defence.
2. He's tactically and match day excellent
3. His preparation and grasp of the games fundamentals and ability to talk at length in facts/figures about the game is faultless.
4. His ability to recycle players off other clubs has been good - a Sydney/Roos hangover me thinks...
5. Hes demonstrated that he KNOWS how to pinpoint team deficiencies and go after fixing them - despite what happened with Lovett.......few could argue the need we had for such a line breaking player. Same goes for FINALLY a coach fixing our deplorable previous ruck situation.

What we really probably havent seen tested to any great degree is player development - sure Gilberts come on and Gwilt too but theyve been in the system a long time......it'll be the Stevens/Armitage/Lynch's/Stanleys et al that give far greater indication if Lyon can take talent from the ground up and turn them into best 22 regulars.

IF he does that this season IMHO he just about ticks every coaching box there is and as Legendary says is in "Malthouse" territory...IF he gets a flag the mans a freakin genius in my book.