Lyon

[SydneySainter]

Was debating how good a coach Lyon is with a Pie supporter and they were saying that Lyon is the most over-rated coach in the game, because he inherited arguably the best list in the comp but has failed to win a flag.

Was it that good a list? Peckett and Powell had just retired, Aussie had been retired for a year, Hamill finished, Gehrig, Thomson and Voss had one more season left, Harvey was there for experience, Watts and Brooks didn't work out, no quality ruckman, Ball continued to struggle with OP, Goose's career was close to finished after that leg break, next season was always supposed to be X Clarke's year but his body kept failing and Fiora never justified his pick 3 at Richmond.

The players he inherited who are still in the best twenty-two are:

Riewoldt
Hayes
Montagna
Dal Santo
Sam Fisher
Goddard
Gram

Milne and Baker are close to retirement. Hudgeton was arguably our best tall defender who was cruelled by injury and lost his spot. A controversial retirement that many are divided on. Ball was a controversial departure that many are also divided on. The Lovett recruitment rubbed even more salt in. In hindsight, an epic fail.

He introduced Gardy who was a worthy investment, but is probably about to retire. King brought valuable experience for two seasons.

Gwilt has finally managed to cement his spot, Gilbert is close to an All-Australian defender, McQualter had one good season but is close to falling out of favour. Kosi is arguably a required player but we've seen his best. Raph has lots of potential but confidence and body let him down. Blake is blue-collar but is versatile and does everything asked of him.

He has added Dawson, Schneider, Ray, Clint and McEvoy who are arguably in our best 22. Make or break this year for Eddy, Geary, Peake, Dempster and Armitage.

Miles, Steven, Lynch, Walsh, Heyne, Smith and Stanley are our young hopefuls.

Overall, it's a good list worthy of contention but I wouldn't argue that Lyon inherited the best list. Not compared to our current top four rivals.

[Dan Warna]

13 points across two grand finals would have seen him be a back to back premiership coach with the second poorest club in the league <shrug>


coulda, shoulda, woulda...didn't.

[Moccha]

Your mate knows f*** all. Lyon inherited an average list at best which has been hampered by some ordinary recruiting.

[Bowey Boy]

Collingwood could have won three in recent years with a good coach.

[Sobraz]

Lyon is a good coach... Very smart student of the game, that absolutely lives, eats and breaths footy... He has great observation and verbal skills, and knows his role and what is required...

He did take over with a strong core list... This, IMO, cannot be argued... Our top 6 players, Roo, Lenny, BJ, Chips, Joey, Dal or 1 or 2 others that may be interchanged, were all there and top players when he arrived...

Our other players that have grown into solid/top liners, Gilbo, Gwilt, Gram, along with Bakes, Blake and Milne were always going to be what they are... Their success is not attributed to Ross IMO... Blake the possible exception...

What Ross has done is instill in the rest of the team a plan and role that is successful... Not ultimately successful yet, however... I do believe that he is slightly too defensively orientated, and doesnt back in a talented player with flair to fill a lesser role, instead choosing a dour, solid player to stick to the plan... Eddy over Steven, Dempster over Miles, Mini over Armo... All are interchangable...

The players he has added that are vital and may/will be part of our next flag are Ray, Gardi (1 year left), Dawson, McEvoy, Jones (maybe)... Lynch, Stanley, Simpkin, Steven and Armo have this season coming to show thier worth as a Lyon choice... If two or three cement themselves, they may change our style of play dramatically..

I dont believe Eddy, Mini, Dempster, Peake will be there if and when we hold the cup up...
A further criticism is IMO, Ross's footy is too planned and structured, and there is very little that is organic or unpredictable about it... There needs to be a balance... We must see this in 2011 if we are to give it another shake...

All this aside, he is still a very, very young coach, and I have complete faith he will learn from our losses, and his mistakes, and grow further... He is still a work in progress, but he has a great base to build from... Im confident he'll be our next premiership coach...

[borderbarry]

Lyon has definitely been too defensive so far in his coaching, but with the list we have who can blame him. Apart from Riewold, Milne, and maybe Shnieder, what other forwards do we have? The inconsistent Kosi? Maybe he will be more offensive this coming season if we can play more offensive players.

[ace]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

[stinger]

13 points across two grand finals would have seen him be a back to back premiership coach with the second poorest club in the league <shrug>


coulda, shoulda, woulda...didn't.

[saintbrat]

13 points across two grand finals would have seen him be a back to back premiership coach with the second poorest club in the league <shrug>


coulda, shoulda, woulda...didn't.

in just 4 years

one of those above has been at it for 10 years with 3 chances before success..

[bigcarl]

I do believe that he is slightly too defensively orientated, and doesnt back in a talented player with flair to fill a lesser role, instead choosing a dour, solid player to stick to the plan

My only criticism of Ross also. However, overall, a very professional and solid coach.

I feel we will see a more attacking approach next season along with the introduction of some more flair.

In particular we must apply more scoreboard pressure and put teams away when we have them on the ropes. Being able to defend well simply isn't enough.

[meher baba]

It's rubbish to suggest that Lyon inherited anything other than a wonderful list. (He certainly hasn't done all that much to add to it, and yet we made two GFs in a row!)

But he's a first-rate coach at that! He's vastly improved our structure and teamwork. His most recent game as coach certainly wasn't one of his best tactically, but that was an aberration.

[PeckettofChips]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

[Teflon]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

you're a d!ckhead.

[Dr Spaceman]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

Well that removes all need for analysis or reasonable thought.

Win a GF = successful = good coach
Not win a GF = unsuccessful = not good coach

Now we can concentrate on all those other threads

[PeckettofChips]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

you're a d!ckhead.

you're a prick.

Is that how this ganme is played when you dont agree with someone?

Good response to what I said. Very analytical. No wonder we have a poor history if this is the calibre of some of our supporters.

iIss off back to Richmond pal.

[SainterK]

Last chance?

Poor example POC, Ross is finishing off his second year involving grand finals.

Not really 5 years of sustained 'not quite good enough' just yet one would of thought.

[SainterK]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

you're a d!ckhead.

you're a prick.

Is that how this ganme is played when you dont agree with someone?

Good response to what I said. Very analytical. No wonder we have a poor history if this is the calibre of some of our supporters.

iIss off back to Richmond pal.

[Teflon]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

you're a d!ckhead.

you're a prick.

Is that how this ganme is played when you dont agree with someone?

Good response to what I said. Very analytical. No wonder we have a poor history if this is the calibre of some of our supporters.

iIss off back to Richmond pal.

Are you being "analytical"? My apologies.

I had no idea d!ckheads could be "analytical"....

Whats next - how come Riewoldt wasnt traded??

[bigcarl]

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

You seem to know your Collingwood history well.

Ross is a good enough coach to learn as he goes.

If we get another shot at it he will go the jugular with a more attacking and ruthless attitude that maximises scoreboard pressure as well as defence.

[saintsRrising]

Lyon inherited a good, but not great list.
However it was in decline, and full of holes. A big chunk of very good players were on their last legs.

Importantly against good teams it was exposed as it was chock full of players who were downhill skiers, and who if the opposition got a run on were gone, powerless to arrest it.


As for Pies and the Saints this year. Memories are short if one forgets that the Pies found success by becoming a more disciplined team compared to 2009, including some players of "flair" being squeeze out such as Medhurst and Davis.

Even the front-running "soft" Daisy was transformed as a player by becoming harder, more disciplined and team focused.

[PeckettofChips]

Any honest assessment of Collingwood, Geelong and St Kilda lists must conclude that St Kilda should not even be competitivie.

The only reason St Kilda is competitive is Lyon has been exceptional at getting second and third rate players to fill in roles.
Getting these same second and third rate players to support one another in a disciplined team structure.

Lyon has more coaching ability on his little finger than Mick Brewery and Buggered Off Thompson combined.

I think the facts beg to differ. Lyon is no different to Tom Hafey while he was at Collingwood. He qualified for 4 Grand FInals in five years but you couldnt say he was a successful coach even if he lost a GF replay or lost by 5 points in a GF.

He, like Lyon failed. So much so that he was sacked after finishing 2,3,2,2,2.

Lyon should be on his last chance. Hr talks the talk but cant walk the walk.

you're a d!ckhead.

you're a prick.

Is that how this ganme is played when you dont agree with someone?

Good response to what I said. Very analytical. No wonder we have a poor history if this is the calibre of some of our supporters.

iIss off back to Richmond pal.

Are you being "analytical"? My apologies.

I had no idea d!ckheads could be "analytical"....

Whats next - how come Riewoldt wasnt traded??

You certinaly werent analytical, just puerile as a lot of your posts have seemed to be.

Get a clue.

Kosi is the one who shouldh ave been traded while we had the chance.

As for Nick, the final series has proven that BJ should be captain. Let Roo concentrate on playing well in finals.

[ChicagoSaint]

you're a prick.

[spert]

I think the real answer is recruiting and list management. RL needs to make some hard calls if we are going to go all the way. He has a team with mental and physical toughness, but our top few players we hoped would pull us through in the end, didn't. Those players need strong support both in the midfield and forward line and that's what has been lacking. Season 2011 will be the test of RL.

[ChicagoSaint]

WBD have proven that a window can stay open for as long as you like.
They still can't win, but don't tell them that anyone let you know.

[thejiggingsaint]

If one considers how long it took Thompson at Geelong to even reach a GF and how long (10years) it took Malthouse to win a flag, with all the advantages that Collingwood have (soft draw, loads of money etc) then our boy is a good coach with the potential to become a GREAT one!
His record of 2007 (9th and narrowly at that!) 2008 (PF), 2009 (GF),
2010 (GF) stands up against any coach in his first four seasons!