StKilda all time WL ratios (2010)
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- Enrico_Misso
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StKilda all time WL ratios (2010)
This is an updated version of a post I have submitted in previous years.
I have taken on board some feedback from last year and reformatted the graph slightly.
And updated the commentary.
The graph basically tries to encapsulate the history of the StKFC.
LYON Mountain, LYON Hill or LYON Valley ?
The red line shows the Match % each year.
The match % = (Wins + Draws/2) / Games in season
So if you win 10 and draw 1 in a 20 game season your Match % = 10.5/20 = 52.5%.
The Black line is the cumulative version of the red line ie our all time record to that point
The dotted Black line is a trend line (line of best fit using linear regression) to illustrate the long term trend.
It is somewhat misleading as it's steep upward gradient is more due to the influence of our dismal first 15 years
Conclusions
A bleak start to our VFL career saw us sitting on 0% until our 4th year
It took till 1905 before our cumulative Match % reached 10%.
By 1908 we reached 20% before dipping back to 18%
It took till 1929 to pass the 30% barrier
We hit a high of 38.46% in 1976 in the last year of Allan Jeans' reign.
After the "lost decade" of the 80s we dropped back to below 36% in 89.
Under Sheldon, Alves and Thomas we have steadily recovered ground.
Under Lyon we have hit our all time high.
So what is our all time high ?
In 2008 we passed the old mark of 38.46% and finished on 38.43%
2009 saw it rise to 39.00%.
We finished 2010 at 39.36% - our all time (year end) high.
When will we hit the 40% barrier ?
To achieve that we would need to win 24 more games (or accrue 24 more wins than losses).
So it will take 3 very good seasons with 16-8 results (net gain of 8).
To put that in perspective in 2010 we had a net gain of 10 (17W 2D 7L).
Selective viewings of history ?
Pre and post Jeans
If you define StK in terms of the influence of Allan Jeans then
- our record before Jeans commenced coaching in 61 was 32.3%
- and 46.3% since he took over in 61
His personal record was 58.1% with 196 wins and 1 draw in 338 matches
His influence can never be understated.
The "Modern" era
If you define the modern era as commencing with Kenny's manifesto in 1990, then
- our record since Sheldon took over is an impressive 51.3% (and that includes Watson/Blight)
The Four Decades of Shame
In many ways we are still recovering from our dismal dark days prior to 1910, the 40s, the 50s and the 80s
- excluding those 4 decades of shame our overall rate is 48.7% (covering 70 years)
- or conversely those 4 decades of shame produced a rate of only 23.0% (covering 43 years)
It is no surprise that we won 20 of our 26 wooden spoons in those periods
And of the other 6 spoons, the one in 1910 and the two in the late 70s would roll into the decades of shame if I was slightly more flexible in defining those dark periods.
(For completeness sake the other 3 spoons consisted of two in the 20's and the Watson spoon in 2000).
Or Three eras of Shame
In fact if I add 5 more years (1910-11, 1977-9) into our three eras of shame to become 1897-1911, 1940-1959, and 1977-1989
Those three dark eras cover 48 years and 23 wooden spoons, during which our win ratio was a dismal 22.7%
Then our Match rate in the 66 years not covered by these periods is a very respectable 50.9%
What is the "Pass mark" for a successful club?
50% is probably the "pass" mark as it is the point above which you have won more than you have lost.
Could we reach 50% in our lifetime ?
Not unless you are into cryogenics.
We need another 467 (net) wins to reach the 50% benchmark.
That would take almost 19 consecutive "perfect" seasons (25W 0L)
If you define a goodish season as say 14 wins and 10 losses.
Then it would require 117 consecutive goodish average seasons before we reached 50%, so bookmark 2127.
Basically it will take many many many more respectable decades to obliterate the impact of those three unsuccessful eras.
The stand-out feature of the graph is the impact of Allan Jeans
His reign from 1961 to 1976 is obvious from the red graph.
His impact is also obvious in the form of a distinct lump in the cumulative curve.
I have called this phenomena "The Allan Jeans Mountain".
The impact of other coaches can also be seen.
Sheldon, Alves and Thomas were also consistently above average.
And the impacts of coaches Watson and Gellie is obvious to see, I have named valleys after them !
From earlier eras George Sparrow and Ansell Clarke had spikes, whilst Allan Hird and Les Foote had dips.
Indeed prior to Allan Jeans we only had 4 coaches who coached for more than two consecutive years (Minogue, Clarke, Froude and Killigrew) and they each managed only 3 years.
ie before Jeans no-one coached us for more than 3 consecutive years.
So the StK coaching position was pretty much a revolving door prior to Jeans, making it hard to name spikes or dips after individual coaches.
Note that prior to McNamara in 1913 we did not have a coach, just a captain as per the custom of that era.
Lyon
Ross has had 4 years in the job.
His average so far in 98 games is an extremely impressive 66.84%
In that time he has lifted us 1.28% from 38.08% to 39.36%
Already we can see the cumulative curve starting to turn upwards.
Questions
Will Lyon take us to beyond the 40% threshold?
Will Lyon be a Mountain, a Hill or a Valley ?
I have taken on board some feedback from last year and reformatted the graph slightly.
And updated the commentary.
The graph basically tries to encapsulate the history of the StKFC.
LYON Mountain, LYON Hill or LYON Valley ?
The red line shows the Match % each year.
The match % = (Wins + Draws/2) / Games in season
So if you win 10 and draw 1 in a 20 game season your Match % = 10.5/20 = 52.5%.
The Black line is the cumulative version of the red line ie our all time record to that point
The dotted Black line is a trend line (line of best fit using linear regression) to illustrate the long term trend.
It is somewhat misleading as it's steep upward gradient is more due to the influence of our dismal first 15 years
Conclusions
A bleak start to our VFL career saw us sitting on 0% until our 4th year
It took till 1905 before our cumulative Match % reached 10%.
By 1908 we reached 20% before dipping back to 18%
It took till 1929 to pass the 30% barrier
We hit a high of 38.46% in 1976 in the last year of Allan Jeans' reign.
After the "lost decade" of the 80s we dropped back to below 36% in 89.
Under Sheldon, Alves and Thomas we have steadily recovered ground.
Under Lyon we have hit our all time high.
So what is our all time high ?
In 2008 we passed the old mark of 38.46% and finished on 38.43%
2009 saw it rise to 39.00%.
We finished 2010 at 39.36% - our all time (year end) high.
When will we hit the 40% barrier ?
To achieve that we would need to win 24 more games (or accrue 24 more wins than losses).
So it will take 3 very good seasons with 16-8 results (net gain of 8).
To put that in perspective in 2010 we had a net gain of 10 (17W 2D 7L).
Selective viewings of history ?
Pre and post Jeans
If you define StK in terms of the influence of Allan Jeans then
- our record before Jeans commenced coaching in 61 was 32.3%
- and 46.3% since he took over in 61
His personal record was 58.1% with 196 wins and 1 draw in 338 matches
His influence can never be understated.
The "Modern" era
If you define the modern era as commencing with Kenny's manifesto in 1990, then
- our record since Sheldon took over is an impressive 51.3% (and that includes Watson/Blight)
The Four Decades of Shame
In many ways we are still recovering from our dismal dark days prior to 1910, the 40s, the 50s and the 80s
- excluding those 4 decades of shame our overall rate is 48.7% (covering 70 years)
- or conversely those 4 decades of shame produced a rate of only 23.0% (covering 43 years)
It is no surprise that we won 20 of our 26 wooden spoons in those periods
And of the other 6 spoons, the one in 1910 and the two in the late 70s would roll into the decades of shame if I was slightly more flexible in defining those dark periods.
(For completeness sake the other 3 spoons consisted of two in the 20's and the Watson spoon in 2000).
Or Three eras of Shame
In fact if I add 5 more years (1910-11, 1977-9) into our three eras of shame to become 1897-1911, 1940-1959, and 1977-1989
Those three dark eras cover 48 years and 23 wooden spoons, during which our win ratio was a dismal 22.7%
Then our Match rate in the 66 years not covered by these periods is a very respectable 50.9%
What is the "Pass mark" for a successful club?
50% is probably the "pass" mark as it is the point above which you have won more than you have lost.
Could we reach 50% in our lifetime ?
Not unless you are into cryogenics.
We need another 467 (net) wins to reach the 50% benchmark.
That would take almost 19 consecutive "perfect" seasons (25W 0L)
If you define a goodish season as say 14 wins and 10 losses.
Then it would require 117 consecutive goodish average seasons before we reached 50%, so bookmark 2127.
Basically it will take many many many more respectable decades to obliterate the impact of those three unsuccessful eras.
The stand-out feature of the graph is the impact of Allan Jeans
His reign from 1961 to 1976 is obvious from the red graph.
His impact is also obvious in the form of a distinct lump in the cumulative curve.
I have called this phenomena "The Allan Jeans Mountain".
The impact of other coaches can also be seen.
Sheldon, Alves and Thomas were also consistently above average.
And the impacts of coaches Watson and Gellie is obvious to see, I have named valleys after them !
From earlier eras George Sparrow and Ansell Clarke had spikes, whilst Allan Hird and Les Foote had dips.
Indeed prior to Allan Jeans we only had 4 coaches who coached for more than two consecutive years (Minogue, Clarke, Froude and Killigrew) and they each managed only 3 years.
ie before Jeans no-one coached us for more than 3 consecutive years.
So the StK coaching position was pretty much a revolving door prior to Jeans, making it hard to name spikes or dips after individual coaches.
Note that prior to McNamara in 1913 we did not have a coach, just a captain as per the custom of that era.
Lyon
Ross has had 4 years in the job.
His average so far in 98 games is an extremely impressive 66.84%
In that time he has lifted us 1.28% from 38.08% to 39.36%
Already we can see the cumulative curve starting to turn upwards.
Questions
Will Lyon take us to beyond the 40% threshold?
Will Lyon be a Mountain, a Hill or a Valley ?
The rest of Australia can wander mask-free, socialise, eat out, no curfews, no zoning, no police rings of steel, no illogical inconsistent rules.
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
- kosifantutti23
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This is a super graph...Great work!
The only relevance, though, is how we've done since 1986 when the draft came in and the league expanded to include Brisbane and West Coast.
The next phase would be from 1991 when the Crows came into the competition.
Then 1995 when Fremantle came in.
Then, finally, 1997 when Port Adelaide came in and Fitzroy merged with Brisbane.
We are about to embark on a new era with Gold Coast and Greater Western Sydney coming into the comp to change the playing field again.
I'd like to see a comparison against other clubs through these eras.
The only relevance, though, is how we've done since 1986 when the draft came in and the league expanded to include Brisbane and West Coast.
The next phase would be from 1991 when the Crows came into the competition.
Then 1995 when Fremantle came in.
Then, finally, 1997 when Port Adelaide came in and Fitzroy merged with Brisbane.
We are about to embark on a new era with Gold Coast and Greater Western Sydney coming into the comp to change the playing field again.
I'd like to see a comparison against other clubs through these eras.
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Since the introduction of the draft and salary cap (1986/87) we have a winning percentage of 48.8%
In that time we have:
* Played 550 games
* Won 265
* Lost 278
* Drawn 7
* Made the finals 10 times (every 2.4 years)
* Made four grand finals (including two this year)
* Won the minor premiership twice
* Won two wooden spoons
In that time we have:
* Played 550 games
* Won 265
* Lost 278
* Drawn 7
* Made the finals 10 times (every 2.4 years)
* Made four grand finals (including two this year)
* Won the minor premiership twice
* Won two wooden spoons
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- ChicagoSaint
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Re: StKilda all time WL ratios (2010)
What have you against 17-8 (net gain of 9) as a season Enrico_Misso?Enrico_Misso wrote:When will we hit the 40% barrier ?
To achieve that we would need to win 24 more games (or accrue 24 more wins than losses).
So it will take 3 very good seasons with 16-8 results (net gain of 8).
To put that in perspective in 2010 we had a net gain of 10 (17W 2D 7L).
- Enrico_Misso
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i reckon we'll hit 40% sooner than expected. 40% will be achieved half way through 2012 if you ask me.Enrico_Misso wrote:Yes 17-8 is better, particularly if the last one is a win
a lot of average teams running around in the AFL at present with the inclusion of the two add-ons.
conservatively, can't see us dropping more than a handful of games this season and next.
40% - FAIR DINKUM!
great graph
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Great graph work. You're not related to Allan Kohler by any chance are you?
He was and still is a great graph person. A good one he came up with is the correlation with China's electricity use with the Aussie $. They are uncannily but maybe understandably linked.
Good coaches seem to improve our lot too, particularly defensive coaches. I believe Yabby and Ross are on good talking terms.
He was and still is a great graph person. A good one he came up with is the correlation with China's electricity use with the Aussie $. They are uncannily but maybe understandably linked.
Good coaches seem to improve our lot too, particularly defensive coaches. I believe Yabby and Ross are on good talking terms.
I once spent a year in Adelaide, I think it was on a Sunday.
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Yesnoob wrote:If you go by history of the percentage of how it would look after 22 rounds each year.. It's roughly 9 wins and 13 losses.
22 rounds x .4% = 8.8
or 8.66 to be more precise
8.66 wins to 13.34 losses
a net gap of 4.68 losses in a 22 round season
But that "gap" soon adds up.
Taken over our history (including finals) it grows to 467.
467 more losses than wins.
That is a mighty big number!
But at least we are slowly pegging it back.
The rest of Australia can wander mask-free, socialise, eat out, no curfews, no zoning, no police rings of steel, no illogical inconsistent rules.
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
- Enrico_Misso
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Yeah big fan of Kohler.linz wrote:Great graph work. You're not related to Allan Kohler by any chance are you?
And the KGB
(That's Kohler/ Gottliebsen/ Bartholomuesz)
Check out their website ...
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/
The rest of Australia can wander mask-free, socialise, eat out, no curfews, no zoning, no police rings of steel, no illogical inconsistent rules.
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
- hungry for a premiership
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Fantastic graph work!
I agree with other posters that it'd be fascinating to see how we compare against each other individual team. I know that teams like carlton and essendon have accumulated a ridiculous lead on us over the years in terms of wins vs losses. Tell me, are there any teams, particularly any traditional teams, that we actually have more wins than losses against?
I agree with other posters that it'd be fascinating to see how we compare against each other individual team. I know that teams like carlton and essendon have accumulated a ridiculous lead on us over the years in terms of wins vs losses. Tell me, are there any teams, particularly any traditional teams, that we actually have more wins than losses against?
"Too big, too strong, too whatever."
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Depends what you call "traditional".hungry for a premiership wrote:Tell me, are there any teams, particularly any traditional teams, that we actually have more wins than losses against?
Of the original (as in 1897) clubs - NONE
Of the other old clubs - TWO
- against North we are 74W 71L 2D
- against Dogs we are 76W 70L 3D
Both are tight and we were behind both of them just a few years ago.
Of the newbies - ONE
- against Freo we are 13W 11L
(so our current run of 6 wins has got us up there)
Technicalities - ONE
- against University we are and will remain 8W 6L
So the answer is FOUR
But note
- we are only 3 wins behind Adelaide
- we are only 2 wins behind Brisbane
- we are only 3 wins behind Hawthorn
- we are only 3 wins behind Port Adelaide
- we are only 4 wins behind West Coast
So another two or three good seasons and we could be in front of NINE clubs !!!
As for the rest? - don't even go there (our net 467 more losses than wins has to be distributed somewhere)
The rest of Australia can wander mask-free, socialise, eat out, no curfews, no zoning, no police rings of steel, no illogical inconsistent rules.
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
They can even WATCH LIVE FOOTY!
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Excellent post EM.
Yes I love a good graph and love Kohler's graphs...they often compare different data from different eras and make a connection.
Re the figures since '87 and the start of the AFL in '90, we are probably one of the most successful clubs (Premierships aside) .
For example, Richmond's winning percentage would be pretty poor. Collingwood were pretty ordinary from about the mid '90s and again from 2004-'07, and Hawthorn had some some weak periods. It annoys me that even Carlton has won a flag in this time!
The 'greatest team ever' (Essendon 2000...which only won one flag) has been very ordinary since about 2003.
I would love a flag, but I'm still enjoying this 'era'...a lot of wins for the Saints!
Yes I love a good graph and love Kohler's graphs...they often compare different data from different eras and make a connection.
Re the figures since '87 and the start of the AFL in '90, we are probably one of the most successful clubs (Premierships aside) .
For example, Richmond's winning percentage would be pretty poor. Collingwood were pretty ordinary from about the mid '90s and again from 2004-'07, and Hawthorn had some some weak periods. It annoys me that even Carlton has won a flag in this time!
The 'greatest team ever' (Essendon 2000...which only won one flag) has been very ordinary since about 2003.
I would love a flag, but I'm still enjoying this 'era'...a lot of wins for the Saints!
In honour of those who went before, in the dark and desperate years.
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For the last 20 years we are the 8th best team. (4 teams below us have won 5 flags)I Love Peter Kiel wrote: Re the figures since '87 and the start of the AFL in '90, we are probably one of the most successful clubs (Premierships aside) .
For example, Richmond's winning percentage would be pretty poor. Collingwood were pretty ordinary from about the mid '90s and again from 2004-'07, and Hawthorn had some some weak periods. It annoys me that even Carlton has won a flag in this time!
The 'greatest team ever' (Essendon 2000...which only won one flag) has been very ordinary since about 2003.
For the last 10 years we are the 7th best team (2 teams below us have won flags)
For the last 7 years we are the 2nd best team (5 teams below us have won flags)
For the last 2 years we are the best team (2 teams below us have won flags)
Furtius Quo Rdelious
Re: StKilda all time WL ratios (2010)
With the expanded competition, it's only 18 perfect seaons or a measly 77 'goodish' seasons!Enrico_Misso wrote:We need another 467 (net) wins to reach the 50% benchmark.
That would take almost 19 consecutive "perfect" seasons (25W 0L)
If you define a goodish season as say 14 wins and 10 losses.
Then it would require 117 consecutive goodish average seasons before we reached 50%, so bookmark 2127.