Discussion about the captaincy

AnythingsPossibleSaints · Sun 03 Oct 2010 2:51pm

Beej wrote:I'm pretty sure that if we could all read Nick Riewoldt's thoughts, he wouldn't see the captaincy as a burden. He wants nothing more than to lead this club, his club, to a flag.

IMO he's the best captain we've got by a fair margin. He's doing a better job than Lenny or anyone else could ever do.

Because Goddard plays two blinders and thumps his chest whenever he kicks a goal doesn't make him captaincy material nor does it make him more respected by the playing group off the park.

That doesn't mean it's not, though, or that he wouldn't perform better without it. As for saying he's "doing it better than Lenny or BJ could ever do" that's not the case.
And who the hell said "Because Goddard plays two blinders and thumps his chest whenever he kicks a goal" that that alone makes him "captaincy material". That is an absolutely trash, simplistic, emotional response to a complex issue.
As I said earlier, the fact is that Nick has a nasty habit of crumbling under the most intense pressure and that's the last thing you want to say about someone who's leading you.
If we want to take the next step, tough, and very courageous decisions need to be made, otherwise we'll continue to come up short.

Beej · Post: # 1008201Post **Beej** » Sun 03 Oct 2010 2:53pm

AnythingsPossibleSaints wrote:As I said earlier, the fact is that Nick has a nasty habit of crumbling under the most intense pressure and that's the last thing you want to say about someone who's leading you.

Agree with that.

saint75 · Post: # 1008250Post **saint75** » Sun 03 Oct 2010 3:41pm

AnythingsPossibleSaints wrote:
saint75 wrote:
In regards to 'loser mentality'. Get a grip. We have won more games than we have lost in the last 2 years. We did not lose this game or last years for that reason. Lot more to it than that and to put it down to that is ridiculous.

Take a deep breath, sit back and watch trade week. That is where my interest lies right now.
I have a grip and as I said, this is not something that I just came up with on the back of yesterdays game, I first wrote it over a month ago: http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... highlight=
As I said earlier in the thread, I'm even more certain of it now. As for saying Roo was injured, that was 3 months ago. He didn't look injured in the first final against Geelong, when he kicked their ass early, or against the Bulldogs, yet in the two GF's, against a "kid" who was only brought in at the last minute, he kicked 2 goals, while Goddard virtually carried the team. He showed them who the real "man" was, on the biggest stage. The only one that ultimately matters, if you're playing for a premiership.
As for saying we won more than we lost in the last 2 years, no s***, but we didn't win a premiership, so ultimately, we lost. That's how a "winner" would look at it, but clearly some of us don't, which is the culture that still needs to change, or we won't win a premiership.
As for saying we didn't "lose" the two grand finals, now who's being ridiculous? We "lost them" as much as anyone could in a sporting arena.
As you obviously didn't see them, I'll fill you in. Last year, we were all over Geelong, completely dominating, but butchered chance after chance, from as little as 10m. Yesterday, we again butchered the ball, time after time, after time, when going into the forward line, often under no real immediate pressure and then, when we finally started getting shots at goal, we kicked 1 goal 8 to half time. If those are not "throwing games away"/"losing games", then what the hell is? Sure Collingwood and to a lesser extent Geelong were good, but we handed it to them on a platter.

No, you don't have a grip. I will point out to you EXACTLY why Nick Riewoldt is our captain and why the Hodge/Mitchell comparison is a farce.

In the case of Hodge and Mitchell, the whole team LOOKS to Hodge as their leader (or so it would appear from the outside looking in - unless you are in the inner sanctum you cannot know for sure). At our club, Nick is the spiritual and actual leader of our club. They all look at Roo as our main leader as he leads so magnificently well. BJ included. I don't think BJ is ready for this role yet. He is a crucial part of our leadership group along with Lenny and Roo, but he is not our onfield leader. A less than brilliant game from Roo does not make him any less of a leader. You are the one reacting emotionally and irrationally. Not the rest of us.

Family has just got back from Moorabbin and Nick was holding back tears. In response to SainterK (who raises some vaild points as to whether or not Roo can shoulder the responsibility), I believe that it would be to his detriment to lose the captaincy. Also, the pressure of being the sole leader could be a detriment to BJ's game. He will get the honour soon enough. Very valid and interesting post though SainterK and deserved a discussion.

AnythingsPossibleSaints · Tue 05 Oct 2010 4:10am

That's all your opinion, but as I said, this is something I've been thinking for a while, so mine is not "emotional and irrational" and I have a grip. We don't continue to be ultimately unsuccessful by chance. And sure BJ being the "sole leader" could "be a detriment to his game", but do you really believe it would be? I reckon he'd thrive in it and that it comes more naturally to him than it does to Nick. Nick has still done a damn good job, though and has lifted us over the line in many a game, but so did Gary Ablett Snr, at Geelong and he wasn't "captain", at the time. Nick could continue to do that, without the added responsibilities of captaincy.
If we don't make some beneficial, significant moves, very soon, this "premiership window" is likely to slam shut on us and this is a move that I believe could genuinely help us be ultimately successful.
You also said you "believe that it would be to his detriment to lose the captaincy". For what reason? Do you not think he'd be strong enough to handle that, to cop it on the chin and get on with helping us win a premiership?
If you don't think he'd be strong enough to handle that, how the hell will he be strong enough to lead us to a premiership?

ChicagoSaint · Tue 05 Oct 2010 7:07am

Thank you SainterK. Now then,

Roo. 193 cm / 98 kg -- 197 games
Naturally Gifted CHF. 28yo.

BJ. 189cm / 94kg -- 162 games
Mercurial Utility. 25yo.

IMHO It's time.

plugger66 · Post: # 1010460Post **plugger66** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 7:13am

ChicagoSaint wrote:Thank you SainterK. Now then,

Roo. 193 cm / 98 kg -- 197 games
Naturally Gifted CHF. 28yo.

BJ. 189cm / 94kg -- 162 games
Mercurial Utility. 25yo.

IMHO It's time.

What does those stats show? That shorter men should be captain.

ChicagoSaint · Tue 05 Oct 2010 7:41am

plugger66 wrote:
ChicagoSaint wrote:Thank you SainterK. Now then,

Roo. 193 cm / 98 kg -- 197 games
Naturally Gifted CHF. 28yo.

BJ. 189cm / 94kg -- 162 games
Mercurial Utility. 25yo.

IMHO It's time.
What does those stats show? That shorter men should be captain.

Younger men?
Great teams know when to hand it on.
In a young man's game and when 27yo is generally considered the peak ask yourself what good a J. Brown has done for Brisbane as Captain and if there is an arguement against FFs and CHFs being Captains.

What does it do for Lenny? Do we have two VCs? Does Lenny relinquish the VC? Has Lenny being made Captain in 2010 been enough?

New Home New Captain.

You're only as good as your last season. Roo may have been made AA Captain in 2009 but he has had a disappointing season and some have argued that BJ is a better Individual for the job anyway.

Roo will be a 200 gamer in Rd. 3 2011.
The question has to be asked -- who copes better with pressure?
The answer is simple. Roo copes with pressure, BJ eats pressure for breakfast.

[SuB] · Post: # 1010704Post **[SuB]** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 12:31pm

I don't mind the idea.

A fresh start if nothing else.

One of the things I was concerned with in GF1 (didn't pay as much attention in GF2 and certainly won't be watching the replay!) was Roo's insistence on being all over the ground.

He did have some impact, but when we made a break we had no forward line.

BJ plays this role naturally anyway, so it might fit better. Just have this sense that someone in the midfield or a more versatile utility is perhaps better suited to the role, and there's something to be said for it downplaying the idea of "No Roo, no St Kilda".

Only concern is whether BJ would be as comfortable in the media spotlight, and some comments from his team mates is that he can be difficult to get along with because he is so fiercely competitive - which may not be a bad thing

Part of you says "Stay the course", but the course ain't working, and it may free him up to prove his worth solely as a player and not Captain Roo, the key to St Kilda's premiership aspirations.

Dr Spaceman · Tue 05 Oct 2010 12:40pm

Interesting discussion.

What say we take the pressure off all our guns....

and appoint Eddy captain!

Spinner · Post: # 1010714Post **Spinner** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 12:42pm

This thread is stupid....

bozza1980 · Post: # 1010761Post **bozza1980** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 1:43pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:Interesting discussion.

What say we take the pressure off all our guns....

and appoint Eddy captain!

I'd go a step further, appoint noone captain.

Then everybody would be free of this burden and be able to play their natural game.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the original post, Riewoldt is clearly the leader of this group and should remain our captain.

matrix · Post: # 1010764Post **matrix** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 1:46pm

bj for capt

lets let some pressure off nick so he can really fire up

bj laps up pressure, thrives on it
the GF'S proved that

imo

SainterK · Post: # 1010766Post **SainterK** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 1:47pm

Nobody has to agree, it's just a discussion and opinion.

Spinner · Post: # 1010774Post **Spinner** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 1:55pm

SainterK wrote:Nobody has to agree, it's just a discussion and opinion.

And its a stupid discussion... featuring pathetic and uninformed opinions.

BJ would make an average captain... Seen how he communicates on the field to the players??? Yells at them.

Riewodlt is the best player in the competition, and the best leader.

Forwards dont always preform in big games because sometime their pathetic midfields dont get the ball down, and when they do... they butcher it.

Any so... What difference would changing the captaincy make to the team.... Absoltuely nothing. Zero effect.

Why not discuss something that will at least make a difference.

SainterK · Post: # 1010781Post **SainterK** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 2:00pm

Spinner wrote:
SainterK wrote:Nobody has to agree, it's just a discussion and opinion.
And its a stupid discussion... featuring pathetic and uninformed opinions.

BJ would make an average captain... Seen how he communicates on the field to the players??? Yells at them.

Riewodlt is the best player in the competition, and the best leader.

Forwards dont always preform in big games because sometime their pathetic midfields dont get the ball down, and when they do... they butcher it.

Any so... What difference would changing the captaincy make to the team.... Absoltuely nothing. Zero effect.

Why not discuss something that will at least make a difference.

Roo is prone to a good rebuking out there, or do you close your eyes to that?

Watching the replay, wouldn't of actually minded BJ giving some of them a serve, even Roo would of been justified doing so.

Probably would make no difference to the team, I wasn't even thinking about the team when I said it...

Spinner · Post: # 1010784Post **Spinner** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 2:04pm

SainterK wrote:
Spinner wrote:
SainterK wrote:Nobody has to agree, it's just a discussion and opinion.
And its a stupid discussion... featuring pathetic and uninformed opinions.

BJ would make an average captain... Seen how he communicates on the field to the players??? Yells at them.

Riewodlt is the best player in the competition, and the best leader.

Forwards dont always preform in big games because sometime their pathetic midfields dont get the ball down, and when they do... they butcher it.

Any so... What difference would changing the captaincy make to the team.... Absoltuely nothing. Zero effect.

Why not discuss something that will at least make a difference.
Roo is prone to a good rebuking out there, or do you close your eyes to that?

Watching the replay, wouldn't of actually minded BJ giving some of them a serve, even Roo.

Probably would make no difference to the team, I wasn't even thinking about the team when I said it...

Do people understand that midfielders always have the opportunity to play well.... Whereas forward, and backman opportunities to preform are heavily influenced by the state of the game???

Riewoldt is our captain... and the best captain we could ever have.

And I initially wanted Lenny as captain all those years ago...

Roo is a champion player... A champion leader... And most importantly a champion person.

SainterK · Post: # 1010789Post **SainterK** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 2:08pm

Had nothing to do with him playing well or not in the GF, thought he played well all things considered.

Roo and Milne have copped a lot of rubbish considering we never cracked over the 30's for inside 50's either finals.

However...

As I said, watch the replay....if you think his head is in a good place juggling the expectation of best captain, best player in the AFL, best CHF of the modern era, not to mention 'our only chance at a premiership' then my people watching skills are not very good.

My intent was to ease the pressure mounting on this guy, like I don't agree he is a champion bloke?

ChicagoSaint · Tue 05 Oct 2010 2:34pm

middle please.

spinner wrote:Do people understand that midfielders always have the opportunity to play well....

spinner wrote:This thread is stupid....

plugger66 · Post: # 1010821Post **plugger66** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 2:37pm

Not sure what is funnier, this thread or the fev one. i will go for the fev one because BJ isnt a derigistered player. Well i dont think he is.

ChicagoSaint · Tue 05 Oct 2010 3:47pm

Spinner wrote:Why not discuss something that will at least make a difference.

... four runs

Lennon · Post: # 1010999Post **Lennon** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 5:45pm

I find this thread highly offensive.

Which is probably an OTT reaction.

But there it is.

AnythingsPossibleSaints wrote: As I said earlier, the fact is that Nick has a nasty habit of crumbling under the most intense pressure and that's the last thing you want to say about someone who's leading you.

Is that what you were saying after that final against the Doggies?

Hm? I think the difference between making a GF or not is pretty intense pressure.

ChicagoSaint wrote:
You're only as good as your last season. Roo may have been made AA Captain in 2009 but he has had a disappointing season and some have argued that BJ is a better Individual for the job anyway.

Er, what? No really. WHAT?

You watch the Saints, yes? You are aware that Riewoldt missed - what was it - 12 games with an injury everyone was predicting would keep him out till next year? That he got back and played good football, and was integral in us making the grand final?

Tempted to call you something that will get me banned.

Con Gorozidis · Tue 05 Oct 2010 6:03pm

I have been saying it for years. goddard is the man - he has one flaw which is giving his team-mates a spray -- very similar to a young nathan buckley. but bucks curbed all that and became a good team man and skipper as he matured. i think BJ would do the same. i reckon he should be skipper.

cant i just say the roo is awesome and incredible and bj is awesome and incredible? but i cant see a downside of giving bj a go. probably not in 2011. but from 2012 onwards.

Spinner · Post: # 1011256Post **Spinner** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 9:36pm

ChicagoSaint wrote:
Spinner wrote:Why not discuss something that will at least make a difference.

... four runs

You've made two posts quoting me and I have no idea what ur referring to in both...

Either im slow, or ur just not funny...bottom line is that if you're trying to insult someone, they have to be able to catch on.

snoopygirl · Tue 05 Oct 2010 9:48pm

Spinner wrote:
SainterK wrote:Nobody has to agree, it's just a discussion and opinion.
And its a stupid discussion... featuring pathetic and uninformed opinions.

BJ would make an average captain... Seen how he communicates on the field to the players??? Yells at them.

Riewodlt is the best player in the competition, and the best leader.

Forwards dont always preform in big games because sometime their pathetic midfields dont get the ball down, and when they do... they butcher it.

Any so... What difference would changing the captaincy make to the team.... Absoltuely nothing. Zero effect.

Why not discuss something that will at least make a difference.

Maybe we need someone who will yell at the players out there on the field instead of accepting pea hearted efforts.

I'm getting sick of reading rubbish about how poor Nick will feel if he is relieved of the captaincy etc. What about how the long suffering supporters feel about being deprived of a flag yet again?

Spinner · Post: # 1011289Post **Spinner** » Tue 05 Oct 2010 9:54pm

snoopygirl wrote:
Spinner wrote:
SainterK wrote:Nobody has to agree, it's just a discussion and opinion.
And its a stupid discussion... featuring pathetic and uninformed opinions.

BJ would make an average captain... Seen how he communicates on the field to the players??? Yells at them.

Riewodlt is the best player in the competition, and the best leader.

Forwards dont always preform in big games because sometime their pathetic midfields dont get the ball down, and when they do... they butcher it.

Any so... What difference would changing the captaincy make to the team.... Absoltuely nothing. Zero effect.

Why not discuss something that will at least make a difference.

Maybe we need someone who will yell at the players out there on the field instead of accepting pea hearted efforts.

I'm getting sick of reading rubbish about how poor Nick will feel if he is relieved of the captaincy etc. What about how the long suffering supporters feel about being deprived of a flag yet again?

You think we were denied a flag because Riewoldt has the captaincy...

It humours me how you think that it even makes a difference.