How important was the decision to let Ball go for Lovett?

[samoht]

Ball is sh1t.

He just happens to be in a good team.

[BigMart]

No, he would not have helped us....but he certainly helped the pies...

We lacked class from our bottom ten player when under the pump....the were a better team

[BringBackMadDog]

Yeah mate....i just wanted us to lose, so i could bag the club....I am absolutely distraught F***wit

and

hang on, I was praising Ball....who deservedly should be praised.

You just HATE the fact that I called the Ball issue a mistake and the club had erred in not trying everything to keep him, and it has turned out so.....bit like Howard, Sweeney, Lovett, Eddy.....and not in hindsight....you have hooked into me, and then been proven wrong....it is why I sh*t you.....yes I am critical, and stick my neck out....but am the first to acknowledge wrong calls.....you on the other hand....

Just admit - the club should have worked harder to USE and then RESIGN Bally.....and not look to an idiot for a quick fix.....Character win out in the end, it is what culture is built on, and it hurt the fabric of StK when L.Ball walked -- why did he walk???

Who gives a sh1t, he is a disloyal scumbag that plays for a bunch of malcontents. F$ck him and the rest of em

[Mr Magic]

Yeah mate....i just wanted us to lose, so i could bag the club....I am absolutely distraught F***wit

and

hang on, I was praising Ball....who deservedly should be praised.

You just HATE the fact that I called the Ball issue a mistake and the club had erred in not trying everything to keep him, and it has turned out so.....bit like Howard, Sweeney, Lovett, Eddy.....and not in hindsight....you have hooked into me, and then been proven wrong....it is why I sh*t you.....yes I am critical, and stick my neck out....but am the first to acknowledge wrong calls.....you on the other hand....

Just admit - the club should have worked harder to USE and then RESIGN Bally.....and not look to an idiot for a quick fix.....Character win out in the end, it is what culture is built on, and it hurt the fabric of StK when L.Ball walked -- why did he walk???

First of all, don't call me mate. I wouldn't know you to pyss on you, so don't presume anything to do with me.

The only thing I hate (actually despise) is that fact that you have so little character your only thought is to bag anybody and everybody concerned with teh Club.
Maybe it's time you had a good look in the mirror and actually saw what a miserable dropkick was staring back at you? And you've got the temerity to call me a f***wit????

There are losts of true loyal Sainters heartbroken tonight, and you're only interested in trying to tear down what's been built over the last few years.

Once again showing your 'true character'.

You've been masquerading as someone who knows what they're talking about for far too long on here.

You've just had one fissy hit too many for me.

[saintsRrising]

Rot in Hell (aka Western Sydney) Matthew Drain.

(possibly a bit unfair, but it had to be said by somebody under the circumstances)

You are a flog. You always wanted Lyon sacked....and can't help yourself.

Ball had walked BEFORE they would have even thought about who to recruit including Lovett.

Don't let FACTS get in the way of your hatred of Lyon.

[meher baba]

Rot in Hell (aka Western Sydney) Matthew Drain.

(possibly a bit unfair, but it had to be said by somebody under the circumstances)

You are a flog. You always wanted Lyon sacked....and can't help yourself.

Ball had walked BEFORE they would have even thought about who to recruit including Lovett.

Don't let FACTS get in the way of your hatred of Lyon.

Can't see what my post had to do with Lyon at all.

But, if you want to talk about Lyon....

FACT (if we have to use capitals) is that I'm a great admirer of Lyon. His meticulous game plan has enabled our team to make two GFs with a fairly average lineup.


However, Lyon has certain weaknesses: rather well summed up IMO in the "flawed genius" thread elsewhere on this forum. He has overbalanced the first 22 with hard working GOPs: Eddy, Dempster, Jones, McQualter. The poor disposal of these guys, plus Peake and others, cost us big time today.

Is Lyon going to change his approach in light of today? Maybe not, and maybe it's time for the club to think long and hard about whether Lyon can get us to a flag in the next 2-3 years while our window is open.

[degruch]

No bearing on today's game, or this season, whatsoever.

[saintsRrising]

Is Lyon going to change his approach in light of today? Maybe not, and maybe it's time for the club to think long and hard about whether Lyon can get us to a flag in the next 2-3 years while our window is open.

bulls*** that you admire Lyon.

You have always wanted him gone, and your post just now re-inforces this....yet again.

Lyon has changed the gameplan every year he has been here.
Lyon has changed the 22 and the list every year he has been here.

Lyon has not had the luxury of very early picks.

[meher baba]

Is Lyon going to change his approach in light of today? Maybe not, and maybe it's time for the club to think long and hard about whether Lyon can get us to a flag in the next 2-3 years while our window is open.

bulls*** that you admire Lyon.

You have always wanted him gone, and your post just now re-inforces this....yet again.

Lyon has changed the gameplan every year he has been here.
Lyon has changed the 22 and the list every year he has been here.

Lyon has not had the luxury of very early picks.

So what if he's changed the gameplan and the 22 every year? Doesn't every coach?

And, apart from Thomas, the Pies haven't had a lot of top draft picks either. What Malthouse has done is develop his young blokes. With the exception of McEvoy and the talentless Eddy, Lyon has seemingly refused to do this.

[meher baba]

Is Lyon going to change his approach in light of today? Maybe not, and maybe it's time for the club to think long and hard about whether Lyon can get us to a flag in the next 2-3 years while our window is open.

bulls*** that you admire Lyon.

You have always wanted him gone, and your post just now re-inforces this....yet again.

Lyon has changed the gameplan every year he has been here.
Lyon has changed the 22 and the list every year he has been here.

Lyon has not had the luxury of very early picks.

So what if he's changed the gameplan and the 22 every year? Doesn't every coach?

And, apart from Thomas, the Pies haven't had a lot of top draft picks either. What Malthouse has done is develop his young blokes. With the exception of McEvoy and the talentless Eddy, Lyon has seemingly refused to do this.

Instead he has chosen to base his team on the stars he inherited in 2006 augmented by a bunch of recycled players and some GOPs who can play to his plan. It's a strategy that has worked brilliantly up to now, but was totally found out today.

Can he now change his approach? If so, great. But I'm not 100% convinced.

[saintsRrising]

, but was totally found out today.

.

tish....

Players went missing today...which still is up to the coach to get them up.

But its is drivel the way you are going on about our list and tactics... The way you are prattling on you would have thought we just claimed the wooden spoon.

[meher baba]

, but was totally found out today.

.

tish....

Players went missing today...which still is up to the coach to get them up.

But its is drivel the way you are going on about our list and tactics... The way you are prattling on you would have thought we just claimed the wooden spoon.

A miss is as good as a mile at this level. Ask GT, who was sacked after making the finals three seasons in a row despite a heap of injuries. Or Mark Thompson, who now seems to be teetering on the brink.

Our team is not currently in a development phase. We were not overwhelmed today with injuries to key players. It's hard to see how we can take it any further forward from here unless we do something drastic.

It's in that context that I'm suggesting that a different coach could be considered. But it would have to be someone proven. For me, there would only be 2 worth considering: Matthews or Bomber Thompson (if he leaves the Cats).

Otherwise, surely we risk slowly backpedalling under Lyon for a couple more years before sliding rapidly to the bottom.

To put it simply: if we keep playing the Lyon gameplan, where is the improvement going to come from to take us to a flag?

[saintsRrising]

To put it simply: if we keep playing the Lyon gameplan, where is the improvement going to come from to take us to a flag?

To put it simply..and as already stated both the 22 and the gameplan will be different in 2011.

But much to you everlasting chagrin Lyon will still be coach.


And while you bitch and moan about Lyon not supposedly evolving list and gameplan...you started this thread to bitch and moan that he should have kept a player, and hence a gameplan.

Hypocrite be thy name.

[saintsRrising]

or Bomber Thompson (if he leaves the Cats).

You have the hide to complain about our 2010 gameplan...but want to replace our coach with a coach whose gameplan that was exposed against virtually all of the Top Teams this year???? Sound logic there.

You may not have noticed but Malthouse ripped off Lyon 101 hugely this year.

[meher baba]

To put it simply: if we keep playing the Lyon gameplan, where is the improvement going to come from to take us to a flag?

To put it simply..and as already stated both the 22 and the gameplan will be different in 2011.

But much to you everlasting chagrin Lyon will still be coach.


And while you bitch and moan about Lyon not supposedly evolving list and gameplan...you started this thread to bitch
and moan that he should have kept a player, and hence a gameplan.

Hypocrite be thy name.

Yes, I think we should have kept Ball.

But, no, I don't principally blame Lyon for Ball's departure.

Throughout the season I didn't even think we missed Ball all that much.

But we certainly missed him today. We were murdered in the middle. Ball would have helped us to keep it in there more, and given more space to Dal and Joey.

CJ didn't look up to scratch today (nor last week IMO).

[suss]

, but was totally found out today.

.

tish....

Players went missing today...which still is up to the coach to get them up.

But its is drivel the way you are going on about our list and tactics... The way you are prattling on you would have thought we just claimed the wooden spoon.

A miss is as good as a mile at this level. Ask GT, who was sacked after making the finals three seasons in a row despite a heap of injuries. Or Mark Thompson, who now seems to be teetering on the brink.

Our team is not currently in a development phase. We were not overwhelmed today with injuries to key players. It's hard to see how we can take it any further forward from here unless we do something drastic.

It's in that context that I'm suggesting that a different coach could be considered. But it would have to be someone proven. For me, there would only be 2 worth considering: Matthews or Bomber Thompson (if he leaves the Cats).

Otherwise, surely we risk slowly backpedalling under Lyon for a couple more years before sliding rapidly to the bottom.

To put it simply: if we keep playing the Lyon gameplan, where is the improvement going to come from to take us to a flag?

That's the biggest load of sh!t I've ever read on this forum.

Lyon has taken a good, but not world-beating list, to within two kicks of successive premierships. Save an unlucky toe-poke last year's grand final and a wicked bounce of the ball in last week's game, and we'd have three premiership cups in the trophy cabinet instead of one. And on this basis you suggest we need a new coach. F**k me.

Your beloved GT is gone - get the f**k over it and quit the incessant f*****g groaning that you go on with year-in year-out. I can't remember you moaning like a siren after last week's game when Lyon's second half changes dragged us back into the game. Maybe last week's performance could be attributed to the players but this week couldn't...I wonder.

[Moccha]

I honestly believe we need a field kicking coach to teach Riewoldt, Jones, Peake, Gilbert, Blake, Geary, Fisher, Dempster, McQualter, Miles, Gram how to kick with their preferred and non preferred foot. Teams know that by pressuring these guys to kick on their non preferred side that they will cause a turn over. The relentless pressure by Collingwood caused countless miskicks. It's one area where St.Kilda needs to improve. Gilbert misses 3 gettable goals, Riewoldt misses far too many goals and the others are too one sided.

[Unforgiven]

People too quickly forget how good Ball is inside. I have no doubt we could've used him to win some hard ball today, Lenny was close to a one man army.

Ball has his limitations, but he can definitly contribute. Anyways what's done is done, and he has a medallion.

Made the right choice for himself, and it payed off.

[dcstkfc]

People too quickly forget how good Ball is inside. I have no doubt we could've used him to win some hard ball today, Lenny was close to a one man army.

Ball has his limitations, but he can definitly contribute. Anyways what's done is done, and he has a medallion.

Made the right choice for himself, and it payed off.

Too right

Hate him though.

[meher baba]

, but was totally found out today.

.

tish....

Players went missing today...which still is up to the coach to get them up.

But its is drivel the way you are going on about our list and tactics... The way you are prattling on you would have thought we just claimed the wooden spoon.

A miss is as good as a mile at this level. Ask GT, who was sacked after making the finals three seasons in a row despite a heap of injuries. Or Mark Thompson, who now seems to be teetering on the brink.

Our team is not currently in a development phase. We were not overwhelmed today with injuries to key players. It's hard to see how we
can take it any further forward from here unless we do something drastic.

It's in that context that I'm suggesting that a different coach could be considered. But it would have to be someone proven. For me, there would only be 2 worth considering: Matthews or Bomber Thompson (if he leaves the Cats).

Otherwise, surely we risk slowly backpedalling under Lyon for a couple more years before sliding rapidly to the bottom.

To put it simply: if we keep playing the Lyon gameplan, where is the
improvement going to come from to take us to a flag?

That's the biggest load of sh!t I've ever read on this forum.

Lyon has taken a good, but not world-beating list, to within two kicks of successive premierships. Save an unlucky toe-poke last year's grand final and a wicked bounce of the ball in last week's game, and we'd have three
premiership cups in the trophy cabinet instead of one. And on this basis you suggest we need a new coach. F**k me.

Your beloved GT is gone - get the f**k over it and quit the incessant f*****g groaning that you go on with year-in year-out. I can't remember you moaning like a siren after last week's game when Lyon's second half
changes dragged us back into the game. Maybe last week's performance could be attributed to the players but this week couldn't...I wonder.

You and your Lyon-obsessed mate sRr can have a go at me all you like if it makes you feel any better.

Fact is, we were destroyed today by a team whose measure we clearly had a little over 12 months ago. Last week we came back in the second half largely because some of our top players made Herculean efforts and because the relatively inexperienced Pies got the jitters. indeed, if they hadn't missed a couple of easy shots on goal they'd have buried us at half time. Moving Gilbert helped too: a pretty obvious move IMO and hardly a major change to the gameplan.

I think your hero Lyon made the mistake of thinking it was his genius that got us back to a draw and that we were therefore a sure thing this week.

So he coasted through the week, left the same dud players to fail again in the same roles they'd failed in last week (Eddy obviously had an e fuse in that he broke his arm, although it says volumes about his performance over 5 GF quarters that none of us even noticed).

Lyon clearly had a wonder year in 2009: didn't put a foot wrong IMO. It was only player nerves on GF day, not coaching, that cost us a flag (more or less identical to the Pies last week).

But Lyon has to take a lot of personal responsibility for yesterday's debacle and will need to do some serious soul-searching. Is he up for this? His post-match comments were not encouraging in this respect: perhaps I misheard but they sounded to me like the system is still perfect and human error let us down (a la HAL in 2001: A Space Odyssey).

GT was sacked in 2006 despite 4-5 good years at the club because it was felt that our far from mediocre playing group could go further than a PF and that GT was not the man to take us there. Excellent call as it turned out. What the team was crying out for was a disciplined on-field structure and Lyon brought that in spades. He set us up for a win in 2009 and, alas, the nervous players dropped the ball.

And, yes, we came close again this year, hung on by our fingernails in the QF and again last week, but were finally blown off the park.

We now urgently need to shift paradigms IMO. If we keep it exactly the same next year, we'll almost certainly make the finals again, bu most likely will be blown away in week 2 or 3. Something needs to be seriously tweaked. Is Lyon up to the task? I really hope he is, but I'm a bit bothered. We need more evolution in our playing list: the only one who really came on this year was Gwilt. His raw talent was there for all to see back in 2005, but full marks to Lyon for finding him his right role.

But we need more than this. And the cupboard's pretty bare. We haven't really used our draft picks very well over the past few seasons (and, yes, the trade for Watts in 2005 didn't help, but we haven't really done much better since). Suddenly all the Peakes, Rays, Jesse Smiths and Lovetts don't look all that flash up against the Pies' group of youngsters recruited out of the same drafts with a set of picks that weren't much better than those we largely spent on recycled players. This failure in recruitment is not principally Lyon's responsibility, at least as far as I know, but he hasn't done all that much to develop such young talent as we have: always preceding, almost reflexively, the Dempsters and Eddys and McQualters to Armo, Steven and co.

You can keep pinning GT to me as much as you want, but the hard questions I am trying to ask here have got nothing to do with the events of 2006 and everything to do with 2010. Yeah, we got pretty close this year. We got pretty close in 2004-06, bar some dreadful injury problems. Close isn't good enough for me: I want to see another premiership in my lifetime. I was too young to appreciate 1966, and I'm getting worried that there won't be another one very soon.

[Thinline]

Let him go? Did everything we could not to....he just wanted out SO badly?

Makes me feel sick, he went there to play his part in acheiving this for Collingwood.

Got what he wanted. Rich private school boys often do.

[Thinline]

, but was totally found out today.

.

tish....

Players went missing today...which still is up to the coach to get them up.

But its is drivel the way you are going on about our list and tactics... The way you are prattling on you would have thought we just claimed the wooden spoon.

A miss is as good as a mile at this level. Ask GT, who was sacked after making the finals three seasons in a row despite a heap of injuries. Or Mark Thompson, who now seems to be teetering on the brink.

Our team is not currently in a development phase. We were not overwhelmed today with injuries to key players. It's hard to see how we
can take it any further forward from here unless we do something drastic.

It's in that context that I'm suggesting that a different coach could be considered. But it would have to be someone proven. For me, there would only be 2 worth considering: Matthews or Bomber Thompson (if he leaves the Cats).

Otherwise, surely we risk slowly backpedalling under Lyon for a couple more years before sliding rapidly to the bottom.

To put it simply: if we keep playing the Lyon gameplan, where is the
improvement going to come from to take us to a flag?

That's the biggest load of sh!t I've ever read on this forum.

Lyon has taken a good, but not world-beating list, to within two kicks of successive premierships. Save an unlucky toe-poke last year's grand final and a wicked bounce of the ball in last week's game, and we'd have three
premiership cups in the trophy cabinet instead of one. And on this basis you suggest we need a new coach. F**k me.

Your beloved GT is gone - get the f**k over it and quit the incessant f*****g groaning that you go on with year-in year-out. I can't remember you moaning like a siren after last week's game when Lyon's second half
changes dragged us back into the game. Maybe last week's performance could be attributed to the players but this week couldn't...I wonder.

You and your Lyon-obsessed mate sRr can have a go at me all you like if it makes you feel any better.

Fact is, we were destroyed today by a team whose measure we clearly had a little over 12 months ago. Last week we came back in the second half largely because some of our top players made Herculean efforts and because the relatively inexperienced Pies got the jitters. indeed, if they hadn't missed a couple of easy shots on goal they'd have buried us at half time. Moving Gilbert helped too: a pretty obvious move IMO and hardly a major change to the gameplan.

I think your hero Lyon made the mistake of thinking it was his genius that got us back to a draw and that we were therefore a sure thing this week.

So he coasted through the week, left the same dud players to fail again in the same roles they'd failed in last week (Eddy obviously had an e fuse in that he broke his arm, although it says volumes about his performance over 5 GF quarters that none of us even noticed).

Lyon clearly had a wonder year in 2009: didn't put a foot wrong IMO. It was only player nerves on GF day, not coaching, that cost us a flag (more or less identical to the Pies last week).

But Lyon has to take a lot of personal responsibility for yesterday's debacle and will need to do some serious soul-searching. Is he up for this? His post-match comments were not encouraging in this respect: perhaps I misheard but they sounded to me like the system is still perfect and human error let us down (a la HAL in 2001: A Space Odyssey).

GT was sacked in 2006 despite 4-5 good years at the club because it was felt that our far from mediocre playing group could go further than a PF and that GT was not the man to take us there. Excellent call as it turned out. What the team was crying out for was a disciplined on-field structure and Lyon brought that in spades. He set us up for a win in 2009 and, alas, the nervous players dropped the ball.

And, yes, we came close again this year, hung on by our fingernails in the QF and again last week, but were finally blown off the park.

We now urgently need to shift paradigms IMO. If we keep it exactly the same next year, we'll almost certainly make the finals again, bu most likely will be blown away in week 2 or 3. Something needs to be seriously tweaked. Is Lyon up to the task? I really hope he is, but I'm a bit bothered. We need more evolution in our playing list: the only one who really came on this year was Gwilt. His raw talent was there for all to see back in 2005, but full marks to Lyon for finding him his right role.

But we need more than this. And the cupboard's pretty bare. We haven't really used our draft picks very well over the past few seasons (and, yes, the trade for Watts in 2005 didn't help, but we haven't really done much better since). Suddenly all the Peakes, Rays, Jesse Smiths and Lovetts don't look all that flash up against the Pies' group of youngsters recruited out of the same drafts with a set of picks that weren't much better than those we largely spent on recycled players. This failure in recruitment is not principally Lyon's responsibility, at least as far as I know, but he hasn't done all that much to develop such young talent as we have: always preceding, almost reflexively, the Dempsters and Eddys and McQualters to Armo, Steven and co.

You can keep pinning GT to me as much as you want, but the hard questions I am trying to ask here have got nothing to do with the events of 2006 and everything to do with 2010. Yeah, we got pretty close this year. We got pretty close in 2004-06, bar some dreadful injury problems. Close isn't good enough for me: I want to see another premiership in my lifetime. I was too young to appreciate 1966, and I'm getting worried that there won't be another one very soon.

Annoying kneejerk rant based on some kind of assumption that Lyon takes the field and kicks for goal on behalf of his players.

1.9 at one point this year and the back of last year's inaccuracy is the unacceptable thing.

Having one of the games stars in Roo giving us one 'break even at best' game in three GF's is unacceptable.

Conservatism at the selection table during the year based on the fact that Sandringham were s*** so second tier players were not given chances is my Harry Hindsight bugbear.

The Pies have shifted the benchmark by having defenders who can turn press into attack by running and spreading like madmen and then hitting targets. We simply haven't the cattle with those skills - Dempster, Eddy, etc etc...

A coach who gets us to 2(3) GFs in four years is no slouch. Nor is his system necessarily flawed. But we need players to develop quickly and with rare enthusiasm and with an emphasis on high level skill and that becomes Lyon's task now. In other words we need taggers who can turn defence to attack and not just stop.

.

[meher baba]

Good post, Thinline.

I wholeheartedly agree that Lyon is no slouch as a coach, although the mindless worshipping of him by some on here (some of which would make Mary McKillop worried that she might get popped at the post as first Aussie to get canonized) rather gets my goat. And causes me to rant a bit: especially when I am making what I think are fair criticisms and then get tagged with wanting GT back.

Yes, Riewoldt contributed zilch yesterday. But I reckon that had more to do with our gameplan breaking down than with a lack of effort or ability on Nick's part.

What we saw yesterday was that, while the Pies almost had 22 guys (even Jolly) who could run and carry and kick accurately, we had far fewer and some (Eddy, Jones, Peake and, at times, Gram and Ray) whose disposal by foot is below any of the Collingwood team.

Our strategy was our usual defensive one, and we succeeded in shutting down some of the Pies' danger men, but this simply meant that the danger broke out elsewhere.

Yesterday was conclusive proof of a hypothesis previously put forward by the Bombers and, at times, others: "Saints Footy" breaks down when tested by teams who spread the ball wide quickly on grounds bigger than Etihad.

I reckon that, if the GF had been against Geelong this year, we'd have won well. But, watching the game yesterday, I was struck by a strong conviction that we will never beat the current Pies lineup again in a big game (or other teams who can turn on a similar style: a fully-fit Dogs, Carlton and perhaps the Dockers in 2011) if we keep turning up with a team filled with taggers and stoppers. And also if we keep dragging target players like Schneider into the defensive 50.

On reflection, I realize that I was being a bit unfair to Lyon yesterday, because it is clear that he knows we need to move in this direction: hence the recruitment of Lovett and Peake and the approach made to Kenneally: all potentiall runners out of the backline.

But the solution to this lies not just in the recruitment of still more recycled players, but also in a radical change in attitude. Lyon will need to move out of his comfort zone and give some young guys with a bit of talent a major go, not trying to teach them a complex game plan, but cutting them some slack and letting them display some flair.

Our current gameplan is so controlled and controlling. It almost broughtus a flag, but now it suddenly looks like it's reached its use-by date. This can happen suddenly: it happened to Brisbane in 2004 and to the Hawks last year (and, to some extent, the Cats this year). When it happens, you either change or go backwards.

Which is going to be? Obviously it's largely up to Ross.

[joffaboy]

And so the post season love begins..........

[sasaint]

hang on, I was praising Ball....who deservedly should be praised.

You just HATE the fact that I called the Ball issue a mistake and the club had erred in not trying everything to keep him, and it has turned out so.....bit like Howard, Sweeney, Lovett, Eddy.....and not in hindsight....you have hooked into me, and then been proven wrong....it is why I sh*t you.....yes I am critical, and stick my neck out....but am the first to acknowledge wrong calls.....you on the other hand....

Just admit - the club should have worked harder to USE and then RESIGN Bally.....and not look to an idiot for a quick fix.....Character win out in the end, it is what culture is built on, and it hurt the fabric of StK when L.Ball walked -- why did he walk???

Gotta agree... we went for a quick fix. Same applies to Max. Both decisions came back to haunt us.